who shoots first?
 

I always thought that the first to move or shoot is the fleet that sits at the other side of a warp point but that is probably wrong. In one of my games I ran with a decent fleet from another big fleet and decided to use the warp point technique. For me it was 3 moves to warp and for my enemy 6. So I expected to warp and wait for him on the other side and then shoot first. But... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
He shot first and killed ~30 ships. Anyway I had 90 remaining so I finished him. But this is frustraiting. I heard an opinion that the one who is faster always shoots first. Is this true? What about fighters/satellites then?
Thanx

Re: who shoots first?
 

Do I have this correct: Both of you were in the same system. You warp and he follows you through the same warp point and he fires first in the combat?

The way it's supposed to work is the defender is supposed to fire first in combat. It may be that since your fleet was moving that turn the game didn't consider you to be defending the warp point, even though you had finished moving by the time he got through it. If the game decided neither of you was defender it's supposed to be random which goes first. At least that's the way I read the history file. Probably if you had got through the warp point and been able to sit for a turn before he came through you would have got first shot guaranteed.

It used to be always the player with the higher player position going into the game got to shoot first on all the combats. It's never been faster player or anything like that, although that would make some sense.

Geoschmo

Re: who shoots first?
 

Yes you understood everything correctly. We were both in the same system. I warped first and waited for him.
Btw - I am first in the players' list.

Re: who shoots first?
 

So then apparently it was random, which apparently means that the game did not consider you to be a defender since you had moved to the warp point during that turn. Interesting....

Geoschmo

Re: who shoots first?
 

Yes indeed interesting. It is DNM Gold if it makes any difference. What if I had some satellites/fighters present there? They WOULD shoot first I suppose. And after that? Also random or I would continue shooting with my ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: who shoots first?
 

I had this same thing happen and sent a save game to Malfador. He said that it should have worked with the defender firing first as the second fleet came through the warp point. Apparently, the game didn't realize that one was there first because both arrived in the same turn. Sounds like a bug and Malfador is aware of it. I do not know if he plans to patch it or not.

Re: who shoots first?
 

I like that bug actually. It makes sense to me in a Sim turn game. It should take a little bit of time to setup a defense position. So get there in the same turn and no fire first defender. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But that's just me.

Re: who shoots first?
 

Anybody willing to try the speed test? I mean two fleets warping through the warp point and the faster fleet shooting first? I have no possibility at the moment so the results would be appreciated.

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see what you are saying, but it still seems weird to me for the fleet coming through the warp point to be able to be organized and open fire immediately while the fleet that already came through the warp point is sitting around trying to figure out what they are doing.

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bad guys shoot first. But it won't help them. Wonna argue ? - watch any "classic" film http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I consider it a state of mind type thing. If it is all happening on the same turn and one just warped through and the other follows right behind seems like a pursuit type setting to me. In that case it isn't too far fetched to consider that the defender may be a little paniced and disorganized while the pursuer is more set for the attack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I guess it is just a matter of how you percieve the setting.

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But if I understand the game correctly, each turn encompasses a 30 day timeframe. So, assuming that the two fleets moved at the same speed and one only had to move three to get there and the other had to move six to get there, then the first fleet would have been there for two weeks before the other fleet arrived. Certainly that'd be enough time to setup a defense position. If not, then the commander of the fleet needs to be sacked and a more competent commander found!

[ April 20, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: Lord Chane ]

Re: who shoots first?
 

While this game outshines MOO and MOO 2 (as good as they were), I like the way it was handled there a bit. Each ship was rated for its ability to react and engage in combat. So, ships on different sides moved at different rates with the slower ones moving Last. Slow not necessarily depending just on enjines.

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And here we come upon a fundamental flaw in the system. Engines don't have speed. Is a Quantum Engine faster than an Ion Engine? Following the 30 days per turn model then the answer is... No. Both engines move exactly one sector each day and have the same speed. The Quantum engine just can run for longer so while the Ion engine needs to stop and cool down after moving for 6 days the quantum engine can continue on for several more days.

Thus while in truth a fleet with faster and better engines should be able to overcome the defenders and beat them to the warp point. Yet in this case they both move 3 spaces in 3 turns. Now all things being equal then what you say is true. But in SE4 all things aren't equal and I like to view this defense at Warp Points as one way to equalize things a little more to overcome the speed thing.

Personally I would like to see a system that divides moves into the time. Thus a ship with a movement of 6 would move 6 spaces in 30 days at the rate of 1 space every 5 days instead of 1 space for the first 6 days and then not at all. A ship with a movement of 10 would move 1 space every 3 turns and etc.

Well... I certainly went off the main subject... heh

Re: who shoots first?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What?

A ship with 10 movement does move every three days.
If you tell it to move only 5 spaces during one turn, it will move on days 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15. then sit and wait.

Re: who shoots first?
 

Excellent. You learn something new everyday.

So strike my comment.

Re: who shoots first?
 

It gets wierder.

Did some testing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I had the enemy sit on the other side of the WP.

My ships were faster 13 vs 12.

On the next turn, my ships shot first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Tested this a number of times and my ships always shot first.

Messed around and added some 12 movement ships to the fleet.

They shot first.

Went back to 13 movement ships and they shot first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I suspect the defendor normally shoots first when sitting on the WP, but a random element sometimes gives the aggressor the right to shoot first when they are faster.