Challenge Match
 

I'd like to set up a challenge match for a team game. I would like to challenge three other people with "my" team. Lord Chane, Asmala, and (duh), me.

Now, before you start "barking" at me for choosing Asmala (without his consent...hehe), I must say Lord Chane and I have known him on the PBW site for many many months. So, we know him well and he's our Finland friend. As to Lord Chane, he's an up and coming foe to be reckoned with. As to me...well, I'm average... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif .

So, the main game option will be ZERO racial points to start with and 3 starting good planets, all players must take rock/oxy (more to come later). This (perhaps, constrictive) start allows for research options instead of automatic swapping of colonizing techs. This ZERO option suggestion was made to me several weeks back in a poll (of what makes a game attractive) I made.

I want people who can do fast turnaround (turn time of 36 hours) with allowances for business trips, vacations, etc.

I certainly don't want to sound pompus (or some such word), but I'd like for a team to approach us for the challenge instead of just accepting the first 3 who apply to the game. I'm not saying we are the best. I'd just like to see how we could do against the best.

The main problem is how to set such a game up so that the three of us are on one side of the map while the others are set on the opposing side of the map. If it means using a pre-designed map, that's fine...as long as all competing players agree that everyone should know all about it at the start. Otherwise, I'm open to suggestions as to how to arrange such a map.

Thanks for any interest and help.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Slynky,
I'll be happy to make the map for you.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would it be handmade (with some sort of start positions defined) or just generated? I don't know about that stuff. If just generated, how could one make sure teams started on the same side of the map?

Re: Challenge Match
 

You can randomly generate a map, and then place starting positions in it. That's the easiest way and probably what Gryphin has in mind. Handmaking a map from scratch is tedius in the extreme. And there is no way to completely randomly generate the map on the fly and have people start in certain postions. Some level of map editor manipulation is neccesary.

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can generate a map in the map editor and add starting positions to that map. So that each team members are on the same side as each other.
Edit: Geo beat me to it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 19, 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: Challenge Match
 

I wouldn't want anyone to go to the trouble to make one just for this game. I have looked at the editor and it needs a lot of friendly work. REALLY!

But, I thought there might be one out there that someone could suggest/lend.

BUT, if generating one randomly and editing it to make start positions (and if teams can be placed so that they start side by side) can be done by someone (someone who will take a casual look at the map and try to shift the teams so that it isn't obvious there is an advantage to one or the other), then that's fine too and I would appreciate it.

Of course, there may be no one interersted in such a challenge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Re: Challenge Match
 

Gryphin likes making maps, actually. It isn't any trouble for him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll have to go with your word on that...and of course, his offer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, for a team match such as this, would a Spiral be the best? You know, converging in the center for madness? Also, 6 people (2 teams), medium or large map, ya think? (looking for most attractive possibility and game with good playability).

Re: Challenge Match
 

Slynky,
Yes, what Geo and Fyron said.
I will Randomly generate a few maps
To the size and shape you want. I recomend I use Fyron's Quadrant Mod
You can suggest or send me a SystemNames.txt file I'll use it.
I'll select one of the maps and make sure it is laid out fair which may require adding removing and moving warp points
Placing the players
Anything else?

[ April 19, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Personally, I don't like playing mods. Of course, I may be wrong in what you mean by a mod but to me, it means new ships, weapons, etc. I'd rather everyone be on an even keel (with 1.84 stock). Perhaps you mean something else...so, I make myself look stupid, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif . (not so hard to do)

As to names, I can settle for the standard names...I can finally spell Tessandra (or can I?).

I see you will have a bit of work to do, if it means moving points and so forth. For that, I express my appreciation. In other words, that's http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif .

Re: Challenge Match
 

Fyrons Quad Mod does nothign to weapons or components. It merely changes the maps. It adds more planets, moons, asteroids, and all around total systems. It makes regular SEIV that much more fun. You should download it sometime and use it in your games. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that what we are playing on in the "Tourney"? If it's just a map generator, that's fine with me. And if better...so much the better (so to speak... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

I guess all we (assuming Asmala will accept his invitation to play with Lord Chane and me) need now is three people who can agree on joining up and giving it a go with us.

Re: Challenge Match
 

I used Fyrons "Standard" quad mod for the PBW Open tourney games. It has lots of extra stuff, but does not require a mod for use during the play of the game. The "Deluxe" Version of the mod has a lot more cool stuff and pretty pictures, but you have to use the mod when you play your turns.

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

So Slynky, did you line up Asmala to be part of your "Axis of Evil" yet? It would be a shame if someone accepted your challange and then you had to cancel cause you couldn't get your team together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, that would suck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

But I sent him a message and he read it in early Finland time and responded back to me saying he'd join up (but didn't have time to post a message to the forum...he has an 11-hour day to work today).

So, a method to making the map has been solved and we have a team.

Now, we just gotta get an opposing team from some of the heavyweights here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: Challenge Match
 

Slynky, your challange has been accepted.

Rextorres, 1FSTCAT and Geoschmo shall join forces to face you on the field of honor and defeat the scourge of your axis of evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

Excellent choice of a team!

Lord Chane and I have both played in a game with RexTorres and know him to be a good and honorable player.

Not played with 1FSTCAT before but I assume he is good to be where he is on the KOTH standing. I also note he is a "Battleship" on the PBW donor fleet so I figure him to be of good character.

And, then there's you, whom I have tested once and whom I only have good remarks about.

Now, a bit of time from Gryph in the way of a map and a few parameters to agree upon (some noted below).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

BTW, just how is it that our team became the Axis of Evil? ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif )

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because you started the challenge! The "good guys" never start a challenge! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Will we get regular updates guys? (Please, please, please!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Challenge Match
 

Sounds good,
What are the exact conditions for the quadrant?
and where should I email it?

[ April 19, 2003, 18:29: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: Challenge Match
 

Well, someone has to be good and someone has to be evil. That's how the world works. And I can't be evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

How about Gyuphin go ahead and be game owner? Of course if you and he don't mind I should say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

I have never been game owner but I'm willing to give it a whurl.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Sorry about the delay but as Slynky said I was in the work.

I think this match will be extremely interesting and I hope we can start soon. It looks like we get extremely tough opponents. Both Rextorres and 1FSTCAT has no losses in KOTH tournament http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I have never played against anyone of you (except Geo in 2024 game but we haven't actually met there) and that'll make the match even more interesting.

I hope we won't get very large map. I'm playing one game with the largest possible map where I have over 350 planets and it's enormous job to maintain the empire. It takes patience to move hundreds of ships at every turn.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd be glad to have you do it, Gryph. That way, I don't have the map and no one needs to worry if I analyzed it beforehand (not that I do stuff like that, but most here don't know me well enough to know I don't earn my wins by cheating, soooo...).

After we nail down the other parameters, I'll get them to you and you can post the game.

Thanks a bunch!

Re: Challenge Match
 

Slynky,
My pleasure. It is a small thing I can do for the comunity.

Re: Challenge Match
 

The winners of this game will be the team who best uses email between turns to cooridinate their efforts. That is HUGE.

Enjoy, fellas. Sounds like fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Challenge Match
 

Nice transition for me, Stone.

So, some parameters for the game. I already posted everyone must take Rock/oxy, no racial points, and 3 good starting planets, and 36-hour t/a time. So, I suppose those are a go.

For other matters:

I propose tech cost medium, no AI (duh!), no ruins, no events, 1k ships, 2k units, and all warp points connected.

Now, there is the matter of understanding other permissions. Such as trading planets, gifting ships, etc. (not so sure I am in favor of this one) Obviously tech trading/gifting is a go. Also, victory conditions. Till one team throws in the towel? How about a "safety valve" of 5 times 2nd place score? Allied score shown OK? Also, as Stone mentioned, email between players allowed.

Gryph will be running the game and will need to put a hold on turn processing should someone have a valid reason to forecast missing a turn (I will be needing to install servers/workstations in several states next month and will be gone some of the time, for example).

So, let's hear some feedback, guys.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Currently I understand you wouild like:
Medium size
Dence Spiral Quad
No Particular System names
Setup with the team mates where they will come in contact soon.
That would be a bit tough with spiral arm unless I ran "spokes" connecting the starting locations.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess size is something to be decided upon, Gryphin.

Also, I think I see a problem with running spokes. Should someone take Ancient trait, the spokes might stand out like a "beacon" showing where homeworlds are. So, in this instance, I will again ask for suggestions on a good map type to use. Personally speaking, if starting teammates were separated by 3, 4, or 5 systems (affecting both teams), it wouldn't bother me too much. Everyone will be passing copies of their location and just build a ship to meet somewhere. But I am still open for suggestions as to a good map.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Usualy in PBW there is no contact between players untill they meet.

I'd suggest installing FQM STD, create a few maps, and then start a game with anchient race

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assumed that would be waived for a game like this with up front teams.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Far, far away in another galaxy...

(NOPE, sounds too much like Star Wars. Ahem...)

It was a dark and stormy galaxy...

(Drat! Heard that beginning somewhere before, too. Clearing "throat".)

The Olden Ones had ruled the K'Rithian Galaxy for too many years to remember. Their bold and seasoned fleets patroled the wormholes with disdain for fledgling empires. Their reputations had preceded them and many empires buckled rather than test the Olden Ones. While extolling the law and order they enforced, they demanded tariffs, payments, and resources. And the arrogance with which they roamed the systems was a bitter pill for any empire to bow to.

But, in a distant corner of the galaxy, bravery and brashness colluded. Clandestine meetings followed by battle plans resulted in a challenge to the Olden Ones. It was not to be a struggle to eradicate them but an effort to carve a name in the K'Rithian Galaxy for themselves. To have the freedom to hold thier heads high and have other empires admire their daring.

The Olden Empire was not without spies and learned of a fracture in their spehre of influence. A few routine meetings between select empires of the Olden Ones culminated in the decision to meet these upstart empires in battle and display their power to the whole of the galaxy. Too long had their reputation preceded them. Now was the time to show their might and illustrate their strength. They would meet the Black Hole Alliance in battle and squash them!

As rumors parsed the galactic empires, both alliances doubled their research efforts. Shipyards were placed into emergency mode. Meetings were held and plans layed. Knowing the rewards to be great, both were cautious. Little did the Olden Ones realize the surprises that lay waiting in the blackness of space.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I assumed that would be waived for a game like this with up front teams.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Having layed out a bit of roleplaying, geo, I agree with you.

From the narrative I placed below, it is assumed the empires know each other. And they just need to meet up and establish formal treaties.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Ok, that works for me.
The Olden Ones vs the Black Hole Alliance.
For a map I'd suggest

FQM STD 1.18
Type - Dence Paradice
Size - Medium
Warp Points - Anywhere in system

I can do a Dence Threaded Spiral, (DTS), but if I do that is will be nessasary to force the number of systems below 160. More than 160 and you end up with strings of systems along the edge of the map. The advantage of a the DTS is each Player can start with thier own string to develope.

Do you want neutrals or TDM AI? I could put a balance of Agressive and Peacful in stratiegic places. I would be sure to place them in between the two fractions.

Aproximately how far apart do you want the opposing fractions to start?

Other settings?

Re: Challenge Match
 

Gryphin,

Finally downloaded and installed FQM. Certainly a lot of choices!

I ran several and I'd say I have to agree with your choice of maps. What is the difference between Dense Paradise and Standard Paradise? I couldn't see much. I thought it might populate the stars more with planets, but my test map yielded what appeared to be the same amount. (I guess I could get a better answer from Fyron... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

As to distance from opposing teams...let me see if I can explain it without use of a map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif :

Let's say the teams are looking at each other from the east and west. I wouldn't want teams to be flat against the eastern and western "walls". So, if one divided the map into 4 sections with vertical lines (3 of them making 4 sections), then placing the eastern and western empires along the easternmost (and westernmost) vertical lines would leave half the map size in the middle. I think that's a good starting point but will solicit suggestions from other players.

Re: Challenge Match
 

Oh, and no AI of any kind. They will just be non-existant "spectators" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Re: Challenge Match
 

Slynky,
You will find a very helpful help folder under the FQM folder. From the Help.htm
"The Dense quadrants are similar to the Standard quadrants, except that they generally have more planets. Their solar systems have an average of 10-11 planets. Other than that, they are the same as the base quadrant. For example, the Dense Mid-Life Quadrant has the same setup and distribution of system types as the Standard Mid-Life, except that it has more planets in it's solar systems"

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, that's what I figured it might be but "flipping" through various systems, the denser setup is subtle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Challenge Match
 

Seems like we have a map choice that's good. Just need a few comments from the Olden Ones (sorry...hehe...if we can get branded as "evil" then I get to return the favor...well, kinda) on some of the game settings I posted below so we can get this baby rolling.

[ April 21, 2003, 02:08: Message edited by: Slynky ]

Re: Challenge Match
 

Long live The Axis of Evil. When does the battle begin?

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, settle down! (sometimes I gotta be rough with him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

As soon as we can get someone to comment on some of these items:

"For other matters:

I propose tech cost medium, no AI (duh!), no ruins, no events, 1k ships, 2k units, and all warp points connected.

Now, there is the matter of understanding other permissions. Such as trading planets, gifting ships, etc. (not so sure I am in favor of this one) Obviously tech trading/gifting is a go. Also, victory conditions. Till one team throws in the towel? How about a "safety valve" of 5 times 2nd place score? Allied score shown OK? Also, as Stone mentioned, email between players allowed."

Re: Challenge Match
 

I'm game for anything.

[ April 21, 2003, 03:37: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, the original challenge (that geo accepted) was based on 0 racial points. I've never played one like that so I thought it would be interesting. So, that's why I didn't list racial points as a discussion item. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Challenge Match
 

That's fine after thinking about it some 0 points will work fine.

Re: Challenge Match
 

One of the "hinky", (I like that word), mechanisims is the way ships and units are weighted. I think ships are 200 pts and units are zero.
Example:
One side mothballs too many ship, (which have a zero weight)
Builds and deploys lots and lots of mines, fighters, and wepaons sats
The other side builds lots of colony ships
The score could look like the mothballers were in trouble.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would strongly prefer not to have something like this. Score just has such a hinky mechanic in SE4. It's too easily swayed by stuff that has no bearing on actual empire strength. We are all gentlemen. Even without an arbitrary victory condition we can be reasonable and call the game when it becomes clear victory is unatainable. But putting a victory condition on it is a decision which is unchangable once the game starts. If we hit that "magic number" the game is over even if all parties agree we wish to continue. The game will not allow you to disregard it. I have seen it happen and seen it ruin some games that had much life left in them.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's no problem at all, geo. Almost an afterthought.

So, am I to understand swapping planets/ships and gifting them is acceptable play? (just need to know so we can plan accordingly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, it would be an interesting concept to have a team game with no tech or ship swapping. Not sure exactly how that would play out actually. Maybe we should think/talk about it some. But definetly that's one thing that needs decided before the game starts. Personally I don't mind either way.

Geoschmo

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, it would be an interesting concept to have a team game with no tech or ship swapping. Not sure exactly how that would play out actually. Maybe we should think/talk about it some. But definetly that's one thing that needs decided before the game starts. Personally I don't mind either way.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, realistically speaking, I can see empires sharing tech (a bit). Then, it stretches the imagination a bit for an empire to swap ships. And even more unbelievable to swap planets. But, that addresses more reallistic approaches to a game.

Casting aside any attempt to keep the game on some sort of realistic track, allowing these things, IMHO, changes the game quite a bit. Not to mention it becoming a swapping nightmare.

Determining if tech has been swapped/gifted would be a bit difficult. However, running into a planet or ship with weapons or people not possible with one's race is a dead giveaway trading/gifting planets has occurred. Or having a cloaked ship witness a planet/ship change hands. So, if you wanted to curb some of these items, you could, at least, have some way to discover if it had been violated.

In summary, I'd say allow tech trading. But agree to no ship/planet/unit/pop (etc.) swapping. But, as you said, I'll play it either way...just need to know before empire design http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Re: Challenge Match
 

I guess I'm trying to persoanalize and maybe humorize the map and game.
Being a creative one. Does anybody object if I do put in various creative non vulgar system names?
For example:
In Your Face
Get Lost
Turn Back Now
This is Taken
Mine!
Gryphin Position
The Olden Ones
Pooh Star Is Watching
and any others you might like to have inluding players names such as
Storms of Geo
Slynky Sequence
Rex Torrents
Lord Chain
Asmala Alamsa
You get the idea.
Any members of the Forum want their name used? Then you could claim someone was fighting over you.
I'm open to ideas.
Let's Hav Phun

Re: Challenge Match
 

If tech/ship/planet trading is allowed it'll make the game much more team play but it can also give much extra work, like Slynky mentioned it can be a swapping nightmare. I can also play either way but I like to say that I prefer a little bit no trading limits.

Re: Challenge Match
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Feel free to use my name in system names but what is Alamsa? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif