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PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

I am in a few games at PBW and have discovered that many players have already out colonized me by 10 to 1. In one game I have nearly 16 planets already, but have been given information that other players have far more. This alarms me as I am optimized for production and construction and have 10 shipyards producing colony ships.

My homeworld can produce a ship in 2 turns and I used it at the on set of the game to EB 10 shipyards. We are now into turn 30 and my ship yards have only turned out about 20 ships. Some are explore craft while others are colony ships.

What I do not understand is how these other players have out paced me in colonizing. Are they cheating?

I know that your busy and all, but I would really like to know what you do to rapidly colonize such as these players. I really need help, and any advise you can offer is greatly appreciated.

Thanks and good luck with your new projects.

I can't answer this because I to do not understand how people can amase so many planets in such a short amount of time.

Do any of you care to respond? I for one would love to know how to do some of the things that many of you do in PBW games.

[ April 26, 2003, 13:10: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

I think some call it leapfrog. The first colonies you settle build yards. Then they build ships and then those ships colonize and then those colonies build yards.

BTW, I'd never build 10 shipyards. Then, again, I'm certainly not the best player out there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I think you get the point... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 26, 2003, 13:26: Message edited by: Slynky ]

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Ugh, the only thing worse then someone cheating, is someone being accused of cheating that hasn't done anything wrong.

My suggestion is instead of asking a bunch of other people how this person could possibly do this, why not simply ask the person how they did it? My experience is most players will give tips. Everybody likes to feel like they are good at something, and asking them for help will make them feel good as well as make you a better player.

Geoschmo

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ugh, the only thing worse then someone cheating, is someone being accused of cheating that hasn't done anything wrong.

Excellent point.

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
My suggestion is instead of asking a bunch of other people how this person could possibly do this, why not simply ask the person how they did it? My experience is most players will give tips. Everybody likes to feel like they are good at something, and asking them for help will make them feel good as well as make you a better player.

In this regard, I owe Asmala a big debt! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif He spent a lot of time giving advice. And all I did was ask.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

But more specifically, Slynky is right. The key to rapid expansion is to get the new colonies producing new colony ships as soon as possible. There are not a lot of things you can do in the first 10 turns to get a huge lead. At the end of ten pretty much everybody will have close to the same number of planets, assuming a roughly equal start. But the fast expander will put those colonies to use building space yards and colony ships instead of research and resource facs.

Here's how it works:

At turn 10 the F.E. player has maybe a couple more colonies then you and maybe 2 or 3 space yards while you have one, maybe 2 space yards. Doesn't seem like a big deal since we are only talking about a couple planets. But that's a 60% increase over your rate. If that holds over time, and it will, you will be way behind.

At turn 20 the difference starts to be noticable. The F.E. has close to 20 planets. You might have 15 and probably don't think you are that far behind, but you are way behind in truth. The F.E. player has 8 to 10 space yards on his 20 planets, some of which are already building colony ships. You might have 3 or 4 yards on your 15 planets. You are in trouble and don't even know it.

How does he afford this? Well, honestly you can't have everything. If you look at all the numbers he is probably behind you in research points right now. Also he's probebly built some mineral faciliites on planets with 75 to 80% minerals. Something you wouldn't even consider doing. Also he likely hasn't built a single ship that isn't a colony ship or a population transport. He does his reconasance with his colony ships. He also might have to put queus on hold form time to time, but that's ok. Even with partial queues runing he is outbuilding you.

If you happened to show up in his homesystem right now he'd be toast. But you wont, because his space is twice or three times the size of yours by now. Everywhere you look along the borders you find more of his planets and colony ships. You naturally assume this guy is not someone to mess with, so you don't even try. And if you do he's got a lot of space he can trade for time to prepare his defenses. By the time you can assemble your fleet he can put a swarm of destroyers in your path. Even if they are lower tech they are going to chew you up and make any victories very expensive. Keep in mind this is turn 20, so your tech ain't all that either.

By turn 30 he has twice the number of planets you do and is building 4 times the number of colony ships. Also he's catching up in tech because he can devote more to research. And his resource problems have all but dried up. Having planets to burn will do that for you.

By turn 40 he has four times the number of planets you do and is building six times as many colony ships cause he is still making space yards.

From then on it just gets ugly. You are playing a different game then he is. He has you beat in every statistical Category, most of them by a large margin. You can either become his vassal if he wants you, or you can try to make an alliance with the other empires to put a stop to him before he swallows you all up. But it isn't gonna be easy. Noone is going to believe he is all that big this early in the game cause they don't share a border with him like you do. They will figure he is jsut the phantom bad guy you are using to scare them. And he will feed into that of course and buy off their allegience and you might end up being on the wrong end of the alliance.

Better luck next time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

I believe Fyron, tesco, and Rollo showed me how to expand.
Turns 1 through 5
Home worlds use Emergency Build to build Base Space Yards
The Base Space Yards are then set to Emergency Build colony ships.
by Turn 5 you have researched Propulsion III, and either Research II or Ship Yard II or ....

If I have researched Research then I upgrade my Research Facs on Emergency build.
If I researched Ship Yards I end Emergency build
Upgrade Planet shipyards and Base Space Yards when as the ques empty.

You have to watch your resources very closely or you will most likely run out of Rads and maybe Mins.

Note: I only play against the AI these days. There are a lot of variables here.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ugh, the only thing worse then someone cheating, is someone being accused of cheating that hasn't done anything wrong.

My suggestion is instead of asking a bunch of other people how this person could possibly do this, why not simply ask the person how they did it? My experience is most players will give tips. Everybody likes to feel like they are good at something, and asking them for help will make them feel good as well as make you a better player.

Geoschmo

Geo I think he is asking because he doesn't think they are cheating and just wants to know how they do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And thank you all for replying. I have emailed him back with a link to this thread.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Geo I think he is asking because he doesn't think they are cheating and just wants to know how they do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Atrocities:
Geo I think he is asking because he doesn't think they are cheating and just wants to know how they do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am sure you are correct. However, what to the speaker sounds like a harmless question, "Are they cheating?" to the person in question and to others uninvolved can sound very much like an accusation. Once it's out there it's hard to take back. I would just encourage you friends to choose their words carefully is all. The mere suggestion of cheating is taken very seriously.

Geoschmo<hr /></blockquote>Words well spoken. There was a moment in a KOTH game where that "water was disturbed" but both players involved calmed those "waters" before it got to be really bad "weather". (OK, OK, pardon my literary skills http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Sometimes, our egos get the best of us and we think, "I am a great player! If I am getting beat, the other person MUST be cheating."

Sometimes, we play and beat the heck out of the AI and then we decide we are good and join a few PBW matches. THEN, we play against people who REALLY know some tricks! And sometimes, our egos get in the way again.

Sometimes, good players play against good players and some have a good planetary distribution and others don't. Sometimes, THAT is the way people move ahead really fast. Usually, really good players know that is what's happening, though.

But Geo said it well. Think very hard before you post a message and make a comment that sounds like you believe someone is cheating. I don't think ANYONE wants to have a reputation like that following them around.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

In one PBW game I did as follows:

I had 3 starting planets and full tech so it made my choices simpler (all home planets had level 3 resource productioon facilities so there was no shortage of the resources first). First 10 turns I emergency built 10 construction bases in every homeworld. By then I had 30 bases to product colonyships while my 3 planets recovered from the emergency build.

Then, on every planet I colonize/conquer, first thing I build is Space yard. Then all production is faster. Needless to say, I got shortage of resources at the very beginning, but When I colonized new colony, I made it build mines and rad extraction facilities. My bases made colonyships fast enough (10/turn). So, I kept delicate balance in my resources (always zero), until I got enough planets to produce more resources than I was able to use. Then I ordered all my planets to build 1 or 2 construction bases which made more ships. etc.

Eventually, I had 2 or 3 times more bases making ships than I had planets, but my planets build then monolith facilities and robotic factories, etc. so there was no shortage of the resources anymore.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Quote:

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

Check out the strategy articles: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=008452 web page by the current King ( Stone Mill the bad Elivs Impersonator). Lots of tips on early expansion.

IMHO:
The key is 9 or 10 one-turn Colonizers from home world on EB the first Year. Forget the bases, you get more bang for the bucks by using a moon or a small planet as spaceyards. And when leapfrogging: Don't use the best planet in the new system for the base. Go for a ****ty small one.

Edit: Why can't I get that link thingy to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ April 27, 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: primitive ]

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

I just did a spreadsheet to show the production.
Overall it is more efficient to Emergancy Build the Colony ships with the planet than with BSYs.

One planet
10 Planets within 4 spaces of the planet.
After 14 turns the BSY method produced 15 Colony ships and consumed far more resourses. The ship yards of colonies that would be settled in 14 turns would produce 21 more for a total 36.
Resourses were wasted buiding the bases and matenance. Micro managment is a pain.

The Planet method produced 31
No contest.

[ April 27, 2003, 02:34: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

That is why you do not set the BSYs to EB. And the BSYs help you use up excess resource production in the first few decades that gets wasted otherwise.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

After reading all these Posts, I have just one comment - play Proportions. All this silly business of an unrestricted exponential growth won't any longer exist !!

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

That limits you to just one mod. It is more fun to play a variety of mods than just one mod all the time (or no mod at all). And you are assuming that "exponential expansion" is a problem, which it really isn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

I frequently build BSY over my homeworld, but it all depends on the circumstances. Generally, I advocate building your shipyards on the frontier rather than massed at the center of your empire.

Primitive had a good suggestion. Use a tiny, red plus world as your first colony in a system because once you build a shipyard there, you will build ships for a long time before you want to waste shipyard queues building facilities.

Send some initial colonizers out a ways because a shipyard 5-8 turns away from your home system can colonize that system quicker than a stack of bases taking 5-8 turns to get there!

One of the big drawbacks of building a stack of bases right from the start is you do not explore the galaxy around you. You want to meet a player quickly who does not have the same coloniztion tech that you do so you can both trade! This is critical.

I have seen players sit in their home system for 10turns and by the time they leave, someone has colonize the system right next door. They also find that every one else has already traded colonization technologies, so they end up having trouble bargining to get it.

Consider this too, in your opening strategy. Rock players have many more worlds to colonize that Ice or Gas. This gives them a good shot at many planets to build shipyards on from the start. However, if 75% of the players take Rock, then the Ice and Gas players have a bartering advantage.

In my opinion, trading colonization tech is a big key to early growth. As soon as you can colonize all three types, you can fully utilize every system.

Beware of the temptation of Ruins. There have been times when one of my early colonizers was sent out to colonize 2 to 3 systems from the home world. However, in the first new system, I spot a tempting ruin to colonize. Sure, if I get a colonization tech, or some other great tech, it will help, but odds are that it will be something unimportant (massive something, neural net, planet utilization, etc).

As for early research, beward the temptation to ignore military science. Fighting a race armed with missles and point defenses when you do not have point defenses is very difficult. You best bet is defending on warp-point where you can get an initial volley off and/or ram. However, again you do not want to research what most players do, because you have nothing to trade. Construction/Mines is a good way to hold territory cheaply when you play Fast Expanding.

Do not share systems if you can help it!

Expand to the next system if empty, before filling the system you currently occupy. You can always backfill once your expansion stops.

---

Real game example:

I am in a game right now, where I claimed 4 systems besides my home system early on. To the west of home, I leap froged that first system and went to systems beyond that, north and south. The souther branch was right next to another players home system, but I got there before him! While he was colonizing his home system, I got a foot hold there. Now at turn 40, I am taking away his home system.

I mined the system and kept him out, while I built up there. He also got cut off from exploring past there to meet other players. I wonder if he has any COM channels besides myself and one other player. His slow expansion stagnated his growth.

To the east, I met a player in that first system on about turn 3. I traded Ice for Rock. Both of us are in the top 5 spots of a large number of players game. Early colonization tech trading is big!

In the West/North branch, I got established there real well, with an observation post on the other side of the warp-point west of there. That system was next to another player's home system. That player did colonize half of it by the time I started competing with him. Now I have taken that system away by turn 40.

Even in a game where there are lots of players, the land grab is just as important as when there are only a few with wide open spaces between them.
----
A few things to consider with expanding, is you need good trading partner/ally on one side of your empire to give you the security to expand quickly. You can have less research, but great tech, if you have the channels to trade with. If you are isolated by an agressive race, you will be starved for Tech.

One other priority thing to consider: Trade breather types with someone. Doubling the number of green plus planets is huge for the economy. One ship of foreign breathers, can be quickly spread throughout your empire and greatly increase your economy because planets grow at least 1 Mil a turn, providing you do not do something stupid with race design.

Finally, in designing Fast Expanding Races I suggest the following:

115-120% Minerals (you will need them)
120% Construction (however, bare minimum you must be able to build a colonizer in 1 turn at EB at home system).
Hardy Industrialists - Faster construction
Advanced Storage Tech - More facilites on homeworld = more minerals. Consider this to be equivalent to 120% on Minerals, Organics, Radioactives, Research, Intelligence because you have more facility slots.
Propulsion Experts - one extra movement is big in a land grab when moving several systems away.
50% or 80% on Ground Combat, Organics, Repair.
80% Environment Resistence. You get a lot of points for this, with minimal impact on population growth.
110%+ Maintenance. at 100% Maintenance, you will pay for a colonizer twice in resource by the time it gets there if you are leap-frogging.
80% Trade if you must to get the key stuff above. 80% of 20% of an empires resources is 16% net!. 120% of 20% is 24% - you pay dearly to get that extra 4% of someones production. Since trade maxes out at 20%, you need lots of trading partners to get more for the points than improving your own economy. Once you get a bunch of channels, the better trade is good. But during the early land rush, 100% trade is of little advantage over 80% trade since you have no one to trade with.
80% on Cunning and Radioactives is possible too, if you have low starting points to work with. With 80% Cunning, you can play intelligence defensively because Counter Intelligence is so cost effective verses offensive actions.

One other tidbit. When backfilling systems, use colonizers with fewer engines to save resources. A planet 7 squares from a shipyard, should be colonized with 4 engines (7 moves + colonize = 8 movement points).
Try building one or two one turn build scout ships before going to emergency building colonizers and BSYs. Those scout ships can get you early tech trades and com channels for trade.

Re: PBW Planet Colonization And Growth

I never build BSY'ds as first priority.
I do what many has said here, ER build colonizers, leap-frog and build more planetary yards.
I usually settle for somewhat less than 120% construction rate, 111% is what I'm using now, building colonizers whith 2-3 engines at ER, one each turn, retrofitting them full with engines and sometimes cargo or supply hold.
Somewhat expansive but fast, and in the beginning I have a surplus of resources so it doesn't matter that it costs.