basic questions on armors
 

is the bonus of squattering and stealth cumulative? Is it prudent to put more than one on a ship?

How exactly works emissive armor? Do they cumulate?

Shields : do all the shields of a fighter group cumulate?

TIA.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not believe the defense/sensor bonus is cumulative, say, if you put three scattering armor units on. However, the damage points are. Stealth and scattering armor are cumulative.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Same deal as scattering armor.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, Fighter Groups are counted as one target - the shields just reduce how many get killed in one shot.

[Edit: spelling errors and clarified point 1]

[ April 26, 2003, 23:53: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1) yes, only one of each. (scattering, not squattering)

2) it's somewhat broken and they don't stack. the first X amount of damage is negated from the first emissive armor and any other emissive armors don't emiss.

3) edit: oops. no. all components in a fighter act as structure. the fighter is fully functional until its stack receives enough damage to kill off a fighter and then it dies.

Once again, these are all answered in the Newbie FAQ. See the topmost sticky thread.

Slick.

[ April 26, 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

There is one cumulative aspect to scattering and stealth armor.
That is the 15pts of ECM. If you have 1 of each you recive 30 pts of ECM.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Some of these responses are a little confusing, so...

Your ship can recieve the defense bonus from 1 ECM component, 1 Stealth Armor component, and 1 Scattering Armor component. These all stack. So at best, you get +60 +15 +15 = +90 defense bonus from them. 2 ECMs do not stack. 2 Stealth Armors do not stack their ECM defense bonus. 2 Scattering Armors do not stack their ECM defense bonus. Placing more than 1 of any of these components on a ship is generally not good to do because ships tend to be destroyed in a single salvo anyways. They rarely Last long after the shields are down. The Armors are expensive and relatively large, so using extras takes away a lot of space from weaponry.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Ok I have read the faq (at least the armor part). What I would like explained is the damage absorption effect of scattering armor. Do they add for each component? What is the real effect?

If the damage is above the absorption rating, what happens? nothing, or a reduction in dmg?

Every weapon hitting the vessel has his damage rating reduced, or the first one in the round? I stand confused.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

sorry, I was speaking of emissive armor, not scattering. I made a test bed, it seems that the amount of damages they ignore is not cumulated, e.g a troop transport with 14 EA dont negate the first 140 damages points received.

Can somebody clarify the rule for me?

thanks in advances,
Pocus.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Emissive Armor will be hit first, but it offers higher emissive ability than any of the plating types. Therefore, it is best when combined with either Ablative Armor, or Crystal or Organic armor. Generally you only want to buy one Emissive Armor component, although two would let the emissive ability Last longer. It may also be worthwhile to buy both one Armor Plating, AND one Emissive armor, and some Ablative and Structure, in order to get the best emissive ability while it Lasts, but still fall back to the plating ability after that. Of course, the more armor, the less tonnage for other components.

When the Last armor plating component is destroyed, the emissive ability is lost. The plating component is not a "hit first" type, so it may Last a long time, but the expected lifetime can be greatly increased by adding armored structure. Essentially, on average, the amount of armored structure multiplies the total effect of the armored plating.

Also, armored plating remains a very cheap and effective way to pile on structure points to absorb damage. Without it, ships become quite fragile. Basically, the amount and the quality of armored structure used in a warship provides tradeoffs between ability, durability, and cost. A ship with no armored structure will be expensive and powerful, but will be quickly destroyed when hit. A ship with a lot of cheap armored structure will be less powerful, but a lot cheaper and much more durable, and may actually tend to defeat the previous type, depending on specifics. A ship with a expensive armored structure will tend to be expensive and durable, and maybe quite powerful too, depending on specifics.

Ships with a lot of armored structure may also take a long time to repair after getting smashed in combat, though.

I hope this helps. My teacher is PvK, the local Armor Expert and Proportions designer. Which I strongly recommend you Play, Pocus.

Proportions Page

John

[ April 27, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Pocus,

Remember that JLS's answer only applies to AI Campaign/Proportions mod (I assume) and not the unmodded game. So don't get confused when you hear about armor types that you have never encountered.

For your question, the "emissive" property of emissive armor is a special ability that gets added to a ship equiped with emissive armor. Regardless of how many EA components you have on a ship only the highest EA ability is used (much like with cloaking and such, there is no cumulative effect). The EA ability will remain effective as long as an EA equiped component remains undamaged (ie. as long as you have Emissive Armor left).

Each time the EA equipped ship is damaged in combat the EA ability value is subtracted from the incoming damage. This damage reduction occurs once per hit regardless of how many EA's you have or how powerful the attack.

For example, you have a ship equiped with 10 EA II's (having an EA ability of 20 and structure of 40 each). You are attacked by a destroyer with 3 DUC I's doing 20 damage each. Your ships EA ability nullifies the first 30 points of an attack so the destroyer does squat. Next you are attacked by a baseship equiped with 3 massive mount Ripper Beam IV's each doing 250 damage a pop (are you feeling the pain?). The first hit is reduced by 20 leaving 230 damage to wipe out 5 EA components and leave a 30 point damage bonus for the next hit (see the newbie FAQ or the Dubious guide for mor details of how partial damage is handled in SE4). The second hit does 250 + 30 pt bonus = 280. This is reduced by the 20 pt EA ability to 260 successfully wiping out your remaining 5 Emissive Armors and delivering 60 damage to other components (let us say that all of the damage has been used to destroy components and there is no leftover damage). The third hit of 250 now sinks directly into your ship since all of the components providing the EA ability have been demolished.

I hope this helps. Also, don't get confused when reading the FAQ or such. You may see mention of EA doing nothing to damage over its threshold. This was fixed in a recent patch and now functions as I have described above.

Edit: Spelling

[ April 27, 2003, 18:17: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Effectively I have not understood all, as I know *only barely* the unmodded & TDM tech tree.

Thank you JLS&QuarianRex.

JLS : I suppose that armored plating is a type of armor belonging to a mod?

QuarianRex : I have understood that EA ability do not cumulate. So what is this 40 pts discount given by structure? In your example the DD does 60 which are all absorbed. 20 comes from EA, but the others.

Also you confirm that putting 10 EA II would be stupid (it is just an example ok)? They do not cumulate really?

Also, which armor is destroyed first? EA or standard one?

Finally, does EA are really of interest? Suppressing 20 pts of damage is quite low no?

Thank you all of you taking the time to explain things.
Pocus.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That’s why I through in some Armor Lay out suggestions along with a brief dialog http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basic Structure Armor, Ablative Armor, Crystal, Organic armor as well as the Emissive Armor component.
Do still apply from my presentation.

Ships with a lot of 10kt armor may also take a long time to repair after getting smashed in combat, though. So have a good repair Tech and some Fleet Repair Ships on hand; Destroyer Hull or better for se4 Based games
and you can also use all Transport Hulls in Proportion based games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yes, Proportions Based Mods.
Armored Plating is PvKs design, and it seems very realistic.
I gave you the Link earlier to Proportions. So you may sample Armored Plateing, just use the Weapon Mount Menu to scroll the scale.

EDIT: Added neat little Greamlin Faces http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 27, 2003, 21:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

I have already the Proportion mod, but I just glanced at it. I really like the Space Odyssey feeling, but my 2 main problems with the mod are:

weak AI, and as of now I only play solo. (you will head me toward AIC mod I suppose?)

slower pace than the already slow pace of SE IV. I really wonder how many months you need to complete a PBEM game with the mod. Generally my stars! and dominions pbem games dont Last more than 6 months, and often between 3 and 4. It seems that Proportion mod ask for one year of playing!

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Actually no.

I misunderstood, I thought you were referring to plate armor, and it went in the direction from there. Sorry, I hope all was not a waist, in the Posts to you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

You have already played Proportions and found it slow.
Wow, I/we find Proportions plays very smooth. The AI is very good and is balanced by a bonus choice as with se4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
AI Campaign however does currently play Slow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~
Research Facilities as well as AI Trade and Research Agreements help speed things up in most se4 games.
Have you tried the Computer Bonus Choice for Base se4 or Proportions? When set to none, it restricts the AI a bit. There by helping new Players cope.
~
Some time if you would like we could have a PBEM.

[ April 27, 2003, 23:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which component gets hit first is random, but based off of how many hit points each component has. Armor components with the least amount of HPs are more likely to be hit first (though not guaranteed). So, regular Armor tends to be destroyed before Emissive Armor.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Does anyone use emissive armor?

Re: basic questions on armors
 

I have never used it. The Last I heard it was still broken.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Emissive armor is not broken. It was fixed a few patches ago. I use emissive armor from time to time. It can be very effective in certain circumstances.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What make you think so ? It was weak in the first Proportions, but is quite reasonable in 2.5.3 !

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Oleg :
So I must have read an old readme. What should I play between AIC and prop? I thought that AIC was made to increase AI compared to prop.

JLS : Actually I play with max bonuses and advantages for the AI all the time. I find them anyway far too shy even if they have the power to bLast me too dust if they used their uber techs fleets properly. The problem which is found in many other games is : lack of focus and inability to concentrate forces adequately.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Pocus.

I think AIC may frustrate you.
The mod is just over a month old, and I would value your input, if you want to give her a try.

Proportions or TDM may be your best bet.
For a smoother game.

Besides AICs next upgrade is out in a few days.

John

[ April 29, 2003, 02:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

You may not want to play AI Campaign with max bonuses and advantages for the AI this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

JLS I don't think AIC is all that slow, after all it is a Campaign http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AI Campaign has similarities with Proportions and base se4, but there also may be more differences.
Some new Components and concepts that you may like or dislike.
The next upgrade will add several new Components specifically for the Human Player, and speed up play a little in non Finite Games.

AI Campaigns incorporates:
AI BALANCE MOD : Created specifically for a more challenging AI. AI balance allows the AI and Human Players to have some specific Components, Vehicles, and Abilities. Some examples are: the AI better handles mines now, point to point re-supply, faster ship training, sector scanning, Stellar manipulations, combating Plagues to name a few.

TACTICAL FIGHTER MOD : Fighters now move in Tactical combat only. On the Strategic map, when launched over a planet or any sector, they remain on combat patrol for that sector until recovered by a Carrier or your planet. I plan on additions and revisions to this module different Shields, stellar harnessing and finely will add armor for fighters and more with this coming upgrade.

FINITE ECONOMICS MOD : This MOD helps the AI better handle finite play and will enhance greatly the value of building Towns and Cities in AI Campaign. Finite economics mod Introduces Imperial Trade, trade center Facility and Asteroid Resource Habitat Domes and Mining OutPosts.

[ April 29, 2003, 02:35: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Thank you JLS for the headers on AIC. I will finish first my AST game, then why not this mod.
Whats are the AI that can be incorporated into it? All the standard ones? I believed you could only have Human versus Phong, my mistake.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Your welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fine choice; AST mod is a great mod and work that Atrocities and the guys put into it is Spectacular.

Most se4 races are in AIC. I made emp files for the Phong and the Terrans primarily as examples for AIC, all should be done in the next few weeks. But you may pick and choose as you wish for your own race and if you want many Computer Players to play you may get the max.


You will really enjoy the AST mod, Atrocities ships sets are hard to beat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 29, 2003, 22:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Me Too..BUT I come out swinging http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: basic questions on armors
 

An AI that could beat you with its algorythms, (instead of bonuses), would not sell in a game for 40 dollars.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It all depends how many million copies of the game you will be able to sell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in spite of the great success of PBW, the majority of the people who bought SE IV play it solo. Therefore IMHO it is a good selling argument if the AI gets stronger.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Well Q,
I am one of those that plays solo most of the time.
I agree it would be nice to have AI with more and better algorythms.

I would love to see better diplomacy and an AI that could say:
If oppoenent weapon X Then build Defence Y

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Gryphin : Gal civ AI is a very good one, on par with the best AI I ever found. Only on the highest diff level the AI will have a bonus, otherwise it is just incremental activation of the algorithms.

The best one, and with a good margin, is the one of Conflict Zone. The studio behind this RTS game (Applied Mathematic is the translation in english) is a company which has strong roots in AI research in the french universities. The game was made to show how powerful the DirectIA module was, and believe me he was.

You had all you ever wanted here, and more. Intelligent subcommander with learning behaviors, dynamic force build up , clever resource handling and distribution to the AI subsystems (offensive agent, defensive agent...), and so on.

Now they are developping simulations systems for the army. I believe they should have done a TBS and not a RTS, if they wanted to show how their AI shined. Alas they surely believed that TBS is a niche genre now, a pity really.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

Pocus,
Thanks. I'll look into that when the budget allows for another game.
I like being wrong. (which means I'm happy quite a bit) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it sounds like the AI acting exactly like you told it too. That, and you not expanding very fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: basic questions on armors
 

You see I played SE IV one year ago, but somehow I got not hooked at it (mostly because the IA was not given his bonuses). Now that I'm into it again, I find the game very interesting. My first real game is with AST, and I have made so much mistakes that I'm only a little power in the galaxy . What an enjoyable feeling. Nothing more frustrating to know that whatever you do, you will always win against a computer opponent.

Re: basic questions on armors
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe. Then MOO3 is not your game. At least not yet. One player claimed that he won game doing nothing more than hitting "Turn" button. Though there is a code patch coming soon so it might be corrected there.

I have never found AI to be any considerable opponent in SEIV. Only once, when I gave it all bonuses. Then it came to fight against me with level 10 shields and level 5 PPB in its battleships, when I had level 3 DUC and level 2 Capital ship missiles in my light cruisers. Now, does that sound like AI cheating? I lost my appetite on that game.