Primitive Proportions
 

Here is a tweak of the Proportions mod to include primitive Neutral races.

This is realy a first attempt but I think that it's playing smooth enough to be released.

Be sure to give some feedback such as comments on research speed, additional features, etc.

Primitive Proportions

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

First glance it looks good

You tied the Traits to Research to Facilities for the AI neutral City slash Culture Center.

well done

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

I've looked at the files and it looks comprehensive. Excellent job. I'll actually try playing a game with it later.

Hmm... Primitive, Proportions, PRIMitives, PROPortions, Prim Prop, the prim and proper mod?

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

OK, I've just played a test game and it worked like a dream. Excellent work QR!

I immediately met the Clukruk, who were steam-tech. They didn't want any of my uplift tech, so I invaded them ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and was immediately repulsed by over 3000 infantry! Cool!

Their homeworld was looking good as well, with a bunch of interesting new facilities.

Now... how about some more "primitive" techs for them? Airships & early firearms for steam, hunting implements and mounted warriors for dirt etc etc. Ideas anyone?

[ April 29, 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Diddo with Dog Scuff; QuarianRex...

Out standing job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 29, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

JLS and Dogscoff: Thanks, I was pretty happy with the end results.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good ideas but how do you do it without unbalancing them? Right now they are set up so that all of their tech is below that of normal races (as it should be). That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for primitive tech.

Also, I didn't want them to be gifted with any and every tech. I figured that if you want a primitive ally to have something you can girt the item. I figured that (with the propper instruction) they would be able to use and maintain and item even if they do not have the scientific and industrial base to make it themselves.

On a side note, I wanted to put in more uplift techs (besides resupply and refining) but couldn't think of much that wouldn't overpower or cripple the primitives. By cripple I mean that I don't want the primitives to have to rely on gifted techs for advancement. I tried to reflect this in the research progression (since, for the most part, they can't research without a patron). This way if a primitive teams up with an AI is won't be hopelessly retarded compared to the players pet primitive.

However, try adopting one and see how it goes. Right now there are major advantages to cultivating one since their homeworld facilities are much cheaper (10 to 20 times less than equivalent proportions facilities) and so can turn the homeworld into an industrial juggernought in a, proportionately, short amount of time. The tech progression is pretty accurate I think but I put this together over the weekend. My testing was mainly to make sure that the tech tree worked. I don't know exactly how close to playable they are. Are they advancing too fast, too slow? Maybe I can work on the AI a little, make them more likely to accept a treaty and such.

Be sure to give me any of your ideas of how to improve the mod. Also, take a look at the components and facilities (facilities are at the bottom, in components do a search for "primitive"), or don't if you want to be suprised in the game.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, according to Proportion's scale, if 1m people weight 1000 kt, then 3000 infantry would be something like 3 000 000 soldiers.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Pretty cool, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Just started another test game, and so far I've only met the Kithra, who are being very unfriendly. Thing is though, they are right on the edge of my supply range. They would be perfect candidates for partnership + resupply tech...

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shouldn't those primitives be friendly?
I can't imagine an alien race coming here to our planet and any goverment being stupid enough to be agressive instead of waiting for the aliens to show what their intentions are.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably, but then the AI never was completely predictable. They might cheer up, given time.

Besides, just because we wouldn't do it doesn't mean some wierd alien wouldn't.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

and some countries are pretty stupid...

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One defense I would give primitives would be some sort of cultural unity. I can think of three ways this could be done:

>>>>> 1) Make it well-nigh impossible to use intelligence on the natives.

>>>>> 2) Natives ought to be blissfully happy.

>>>>> 3) Make it impossible for the natives to surrender. What good is it keeping a massively inferior race alive, when with a surrender, you could control them completely, get all of their resources, planets, etc? UNLESS there would be some other reason to keep the natives alive...IOW, something the natives could build/do that nobody else could, that would make it worth keeping their Empire around. The 'Plague Intelligence Project' sounds great, but something in addition might be good...off the top of my head, maybe a long-range plague infestation missile weapon, called (for now) Foul Catapult?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe so, but I was thinking that the natives would build a ship with a unique component, and the player would "buy" it from the natives, by trading resources, Tech levels, other ships, etc. for it.
>
>
>
On another topic, it might be a cool feature if natives didn't actually speak your language, but instead there had to be translations. This would have no affect on gameplay, it'd just look neat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . For example:

We have received a message from the Ewok Chiefdom:
" 'Yub Yub Inga Ooooohah...' Translation: We admire the many shiny things your empire has"
(General Message)

...or, conversely:
" 'Yub Yubaaaaaah Yah!!' Translation: We shall play your fighting game with glee!"
(response to declaration of War)

...and so on. Might be fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Dingo,

Why do you think that primitives would have cultural unity. Usually, the less advanced a culture, the more isolated and fragmented it is. I'm not sure why you would think that they would be acting with one mind, one voice.

As far as never surrendering, primitives may be a little technologicaly backward but they are not stupid. Courage and bravery mean nothing when your foe opens up the heavens and liquifies a small continent with a hail of APB XII's (or even just the threat of such). As for why you would bother keeping them around, see my post below.

Aloofi,

Yeah, the primitives should be friendly. The problem is that I have absolutely no experience modding the AI politics/anger files. If anyone wants to take a crack at them to make them a
little less surly I would appreciate it. In the meantime I'll probably try to tinker with them myself, but I promise nothing.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Wooha! I just started another game and managed to get a military alliance with the Clukruk (despite their "angry" attitude.)

I parked a ship around their homeworld and gifted them resaupply tech. Sure enough, within a few turns they had built me a resuply depot! I gifted them refining tech and sure enough, a few turns later my trade income from them had increased by a factor of about 5!

I gave them a crappy old escort. They have parked it above my homeworld and have been wondering what to do with it for the Last 20 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now I've gifted them glactic expansion. I'll tell you what that does next week...

In the meantime, I think i might try to create a dedicated primitive shipset. I already have a spare race portrait knocking around, so I have some fun with the AI_general and AI_Speech. Then I can add some "spears and loincloth" infantry pics, maybe a bantha-rider small troop or something... Or perhaps I could make them steam tech or space tech and draw a few old-fashioned "destination moon" style rockets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

QR: Is it possible for them to get uplifted all the way up to full spacefaring in this mod? If so I should probably be making them look just like any other race, shouldn't I? Or should I? That seems kind of silly to me. I don't know. Rex I still can't see how your additions to the various modded files work- they obviously do work but I can't see how http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . What images do I need to make? Help!

EDIT: If there is a need for dedicated primitive shipset images, maybe they should just go in the generic folder to serve all primitive races. What do you think?

[ May 02, 2003, 14:39: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At least the way it looks (on earth) to me, the more primitive people are, the more zealous they *tend* to be. Off the top of my head, some examples are the Aztecs, The Crusades, and Emperor-worship in both Rome and Egypt.

However, as society has progressed, it has become less and less dangerous to speak out against your government. From teachers on strike to the French Revolution, people rally together in Groups, demanding that they get their 'fair share'. Sure, living conditions are a lot better than they were back then...but people now have the chance to voice their disapproval, and anti-government feelings are not suppressed by survival instincts.

I'm no historical expert, I could be entirely wrong. And of course, there are exceptions - WWI/WWII Germany, Communism, Dictatorship - there are plenty of oppressive governments in this day and age. Not to mention the fact that this isn't a game of competing humans, it's competing alien species...their mindsets could be completely different from ours.

Why not have some races be surrender-prone, and others be stalwart never-surrender zealots?

Edit: Allright, maybe I got a little too philosophical there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ May 07, 2003, 00:31: Message edited by: Dingocat85 ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

20 or 30 turns after gifting "galactric expansion" to the Clukruk I have yet to see any ships or anything.

I also parked an empty troop transport above their homeworld and gave it to them (sold it for 1000 minerals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). They have yet to move it (I kind of hoped they'd go and conquer an EEE colony) but it might well be full of troops. I'll get some LR scanners later and find out.
(Oops- they're neutral - they can't attack a colony unless it's in their system! I think I'll send in a coloniser and gift them that, see what happens.)

Oh, and I met the Zynarra. I sent in a ship and saw that their homeworld had 4000 troops and 550 crappy fighters, as well as a heap of really low-tech space stations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif - This mod is great fun.

Anyway, I will probably get on with that dedicated primitive shipset soon, and then swap it out with one of the existing neutrals, so that not all neutrals will be primitive, just most of them.

Also, now that Quarian has produced the "guts" of the mod, I might start messing about with it and release my own "remix".

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Make sure if you give them a colonizer it is in a system with a planet they can colonize. What will happen is they will have full normal use of the colony ship in the system that you gave it to them in. But they cannot leave that system. You can use this method to help a neutral to "expand". But they will still be unable to transit any warp points.

Geoschmo

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quick question, QuarianRex, why did you make the primitives Neutrals?

Was it your intention that they be forever unable to leave their home system?

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Capture the Planet, drain the resources, and enslave this alternate breathing society to populate worlds that are compatible. Watch your POP and your production numbers climb then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Trade with this race is not as profitable as total control of the species. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The original neutrals have far more to offer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

I have an idea for a fun Primitive Ship Weapon: Raider Pods!
------
Description: A tiny vessel of armed thugs used to beat up & enslave a ship's crew - Will not work against Master Computers.

Explanation: A seeker that, upon contact with an enemy ship, will attempt to control it, a la Allegiance Subverter. It should use relatively high supplies (you're arming a weapon with people, for god's sake! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ), but a faster reload than the allegiance subverter - maybe, say, reload time 8?

Another weapon Primitives could get is a long-range, high-seeker-speed, tiny weapon sized, weak seeker damage resistance, level-1-plague-inflicting missile...named Infested Catapult, maybe?
------

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With enough unique Intel (plague intel, for example) and unique weapons (i.e. Raider Pods, Infested Catapult, any other ideas?), there should be *some* incentive to keep primitives around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ May 07, 2003, 00:27: Message edited by: Dingocat85 ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Ok, but in Proportions, I expect this plan will take many years (maybe even decades or centuries) to pay off more than you could theoretically get if you could figure out a way to leach their trade income, because even with 100% added population for new colonies, you still have to transport the people around to the colonies using ships (maintenance), and to build the colony infrastructure to compete not only with 20% of your homeworld and empire, but with 20% from any other homeworlds they trade with.

Of course, I'm not at all sure how much of their trade resources you'd be able to leach from the AI, or how much your opponents would be able to leach from them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

I set the neutrals in Proportion to use 100% of resources in building units, but they still building ships. What should I do so the neutral AI only build units?

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Interestinger and interestinger. The clukruk have had 40 or 50 turns now with galactic expansion, and they still aren't building ships. I sent a coloniser into their home system but not all the way to their homeworld and gifted it to them (The cheeky bastards refused a trade of 50000mins, orgs and rads+coloniser for that poxy troop transport they weren't even using!) but they didn't even move it. They just left it drifting, mid-system, for about 10 turns. Maybe I should have sent it right the way to the homeworld but it seems to me they are completely unable to move any ships at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

So I declared war on them and took the coloniser back with boarding parties http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Next I'm going to reclaim the troop transport and see if they have loaded it with troops, and then maybe assault their homeworld. I have some serious troop technology (hey kids, research troop weapons and torpedo weapons to a high level- there are some nice surprises there) so I think I might just be able to take on their thousands of warriors with just a few hundred kt of medium troops and elite infantry. If their troop transport has been loaded, I can use their own people to conquer them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Aloofi, Try adjustments within the unit Construction file; for the results you are looking for. This race also must have its own Unit File, in its Pictures/Race~ folder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dingocat85, the AI handles Subverters pretty well, and should work fine on those pesky missile you described. Excellent Idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

GLV, true to Primitive Home Worlds. Would be 100% value and ripe for your cultures facilities, however you will have to be near; to be able to afford transporting civilians in Proportions, with early techs.
You really must curb your gunboat ways with the AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , Trade is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 07, 2003, 15:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

Originally posted by dogscoff:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now, this does not sound fair, to the AI.

We need to put some Self-Distruct on their designs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dingocat85, what do you think, we need something Primitive and creative.....Hmm

[ May 07, 2003, 15:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No it's not. There's nothing fair about it, but that's just the way it has to be when a bunch of semi-evolved steam tecchers squander my generosity and piss me off.

Seriously though, it might well open up a very easy conquest strategy for use against primitives:
-Gift them three or four starliners designated as "troop transports".
-Wait a turn or two for them to transfer all or most of their troops to the new ships.
-Capture the ships, use them to invade.

Hmm, I wonder if a variation on this could be used to strip normal proportions AI homeworlds of their troop defences?

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

In the GAME; you are truily cunning.
Dogscuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I think, I am going to like you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But you will still have to leave the Planets Orbit, after you turn them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Or have a fleet of yours in place, if this is the case, then why bother. Or is it just for the irony http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Wait, am I being SIMU minded; again, here?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 09, 2003, 03:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

OK, so I sent a boarding ship to the Clukruk homeworld and repossessed my troop transport. Sure enough, they had thoughtfully transferred a few hundred infantry troops onto it. Very handy.

I had a look at the facilities while I was there, and I think maybe I can see why they haven't built any ships since I gave them the galactic expansion tech- they are busy upgrading all their homeworld facilities. Half of them are Spaceport cities (VI) and the other half are labelled major city (advanced) (X). I assume they are upgrading from the former to the latter. If this is the case though, when they are finished they will lose their resupply ability.

Of course it's also possbile that they upgraded half their facilities from X to VI when I gave them resupply ability, but then when I gave them galactic expansion they started trying to upgrade to cultural centres or something stupid like that...

Anyway, I'll drop in again in 10 turns time to see how they are getting on. If they are making any progress I'll give them a chance to finish and produce a ship or two before I sweep in and conquer them. Aren't I generous? Besides, I need some time to build an invasion force to counter the 11000 troops they've assembled.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you not destroy their troops from orbit?

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">11000?
That's 11 million soldiers in Proportions scale of 1m population weighting 1000 kt! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I guess I could... it's still quite early in the game though, and it might take me more than 30 combat turns to burn through the planet's shielding using torps and destroyers. Besides, I don't want to risk damage to the facilities.

but yeah, 11000 troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'll have to check up on some of the other neutrals I've found, see how many they've accumulated...

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:

Quote:

but yeah, 11000 troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'll have to check up on some of the other neutrals I've found, see how many they've accumulated...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If they are primitive, we should assume that they have a warrior society by default. They should have the capacity of recruiting far larger numbers of foot soldiers than a more technological advanced society could.
Maybe the should also have a greater reproduction rate.

.

.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutely. I am sure of the fact that a man without work breeds more. Nothing like unemployment to solve fertility issues.

[ May 08, 2003, 17:00: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutely. I am sure of the fact that a man without work breeds more. Nothing like unemployment to solve fertility issues.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not quite. The highest reproduction rate is in poor countries, where people must work very hard just to get some food. The lowest is in western countries with a lot of people on welfare.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

I apologize for my absnsce but my access to the internet has been somewhat sporatic.

dogscoff:

RE:uplifting all the way. They are designed to do that already but they have to completly finish researching their racial techs first. Then they research galactic expansion (GE) and continue researching according to their normal neutral research file. Prematurely gifting them with GE probably won't do much since they must still finish researching the racial tech.

Eventually they will all reach the tech level of the normal neutral races. That's why I didn't include pics of spearchuckers and such. It would have been ridiculous at higher tech levels.

As for how my additions work... well I hope they work well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Actually, I just tried to make the fewest number of alterations as was possible. That means that the primitives act almost exactly the same as the normal neutrals, though with limited tech. No extra images are needed.

Loser:

I made the primitives neutral for a few reasons. Mainlt since they are so crappy initially that I could not imagine a human wanting to play them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Also, these guys are meant to be flavour, a fun addition to the game, not movers and shakers in the galactic scheme of things. That's best represented by neutrals.

Grand Lord Vito:

You could just enslave them right away but that would be wasteful. If you feed them some research points they can develop quite quickly, they can upgrade their homeworlds 10-20x faster than normal. If you take them over their world develops at your rate which, in Proportions, blows monkey arse.

Also, if anyone wants to mess with the AI files I say unto thee, "Go nuts!". Here are some ideas on how they should act...

I would like them to be more likely to accept higher level treaties right off the bat (perhaps making the "Accept Treaty Anger Modifier Per Higher Treaty Level" value from politics.txt a positive number?). Also, the less advanced the primitive, the more accomodating it should be.

The primitive should be less isolationist towards their allies as well. It's okay to get ticked when unknown aliens invade your space but the presence of your patron should increase happiness, not decrease it. This should also be in proportion to the advancement of the race. Those you raise up from the caves should consider you to be gods, those on the verge of space flight should be a little less servile.

The politics and anger files need the most work. The other files (research, design, etc.) are good as stock. It seems to nicely represent the unspecialized nature of an advance primitive.

These are just some ideas. If anyone (a hairy eyeball turns toward JLS) has any idea how to correctly impliment any of these ideas (or has some good ideas of their own) their help would be greatly appreciated. The better this mod gets, the happier I'll be.

Re: Primitive Proportions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, QuarianRex http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I will have some drafts for you ASAP.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif