Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Against a bezerker race with maxed defense and a fully trained fleet a massive platform still can't hit the side of a barn. Does anyone else think that they need help?

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

ships have the benefit of size, range and training that WP's do not receive, as well as stealth & scattering armors.

And you're sure you put sensors on the WP? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Rex, I've felt this way for a long time. All that incredible range wasted because they can't hit diddly way out there. By the time the ships are close enough that they can hit with any certainty, the enemy ships are pummeling the planet with scarcely a miss!

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

What may help a lot is the use of weapons with hit bonus like wave-motion guns on the weapon platforms. In my experience weapon platforms are a serious threat for attacking ships.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

But the WMG has only 30% bonus, extending the practical range of the weapon by only 3, which isn't that much. And that's the highest bonus any weapon other than PDCs get. And the weapon is really not practical beyond its original max range even without the issue of experience, defense, stealth and scattering armor, etc.
(although PDCs would probably be useful vs orbital missile bombardment, so there might be some value there.)

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

"But the WMG has only 30% bonus, extending the practical range of the weapon by only 3, which isn't that much."

Massive mount for a weapon platform: +80%

Stealth/scattering: -30%

ECM is canceled by combat sensors with +5% left over. Fleet gives you an additional -40%

So it adds up to: net +15% for the weapon platform with a normal weapon, net +45% with WMG

To-hits for the planet (WMG)
Range 1: 100% (100%)
Range 2: 95% (100%)
Range 3: 85% (100%)
Range 4: 75% (100%)
Range 5: 65% (95%)
Range 6: 55% (85%)
Range 7: 45% (75%)
Range 8: 35% (65%)

Once you get out to the LARGE ranges WPs get, you probably won't hit. But inside of ship range you've got a decent shot. Then again at any ship range the ships will likely hit 99% of the time..

I'm assuming both are beserker and that the planet gets that bonus.

Phoenix-D

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

WP also don't get the racial bonuses so it's even worse than that if the attacking race has maxed out defense.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does that mean no unit gets racial bonuses? If so it'll make satellites, fighters and weapon platforms much for the worse.

Btw I think this has been forgotten:
Planet Combat Offense Modifier := 30 (Settings.txt)

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

"WP also don't get the racial bonuses so it's even worse than that if the attacking race has maxed out defense."

But with the 30% bonus point out in settings.txt that almost cancels out; you get a net 5% loss, giving the weapon platform an overall bonus of +10%.

The extreme ranges given by the mounts are the problem; if it fired soley in normal range it would work OK.

Phoenix-D

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

There may be a problem late in the game when the attacker can put together a decent fleet with training and ECM and all that stuff. But early on they are pretty devastating with the extra range and damage. Even if they don't hit every time, each hit is hard. I had a guy lose a fleet of 20+ ships (destroyers and a few LC's to give you an idea of the tech level) to a planet of mine with about a dozen WP's with PPB III's and combat sensor I's.

If you make it so they are tougher in the late game are you gonna make planets impossible to take out in the early game?

Geoschmo

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Maybe the problem isn't so much the weapons platforms as it is the bonus to hit planets. Why should ships hit every time against a planet? Yes of course it would be hard to miss something that big, but not every hit would do damage. Planetary facilities and platforms can be hardened much more so then ships can. A shot at a ship that misses it's target by thirty meters but still hits the ship is still gonna do a lot of damage. A shot by the same weapon against a planet that misses it's target by thrity meters might as well have missed the planet for all the damage it's gonna do to the target. Since we can't have variable damage, maybe we need to lower the chance to hit a planet to simulate these kinds of hits that don't really cause any harm.

Geoschmo

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

I suspect it's a matter of playability. Like Geo said (well, not in these words), it would make the game one heck of a drag if planets became nearly impossible to take out. It's probably another "realism -vs- playability" problem.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Wow, good points. I like Geo's Version, but maybe with a twist -- ship-to-ship weapons should do half damage vs. planets... How does that sound?

Or ship to ship weapons are -50% to hit the planet. Then, your more specialized anti-planet munitions would be more purposeful.

--Ed

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

There's a value in settings.txt that you can use to change the chance to hit ratio:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Planet Combat Defense Modifier := -200</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wait... If I correctly understand how SE IV treats units, you only need one of those Combat Sensor I's. Is that correct?

Would whole Armor WPs be hit before all other WPs?

Would one Religious WP make all WPs on that world Religious?

Would Troops with Shields protect WPs?

Would Fighters or Satellites with Shields, in planetary cargo, protect other units in cargo?

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that is correct, although I also think that if you lose the particular WP that has it then you lose the ability it gives, so I usually put them on each anyway. Although there may be some way to make sure the one with the SC is the Last one killed, but I have never bothered to try figuring that out.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't know about that.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I believe that is the same as sensors.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Used to, but not anymore. That was changed in a patch recently. Now WP's get hit first.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, I don't know about that. Fighters get launched. Sats I think soak up some damage for whatever their structure is, but WP's get hit first. Then whatever caro is left gets hit in random order.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Also i've noticed that when you have two platforms one with armor and one without for instance the one with weapons gets hit first regardless of order (at least from my tests) that definitly should be changed or at least randomized.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, unfortunately weakest WP get killed first. Unless... they have different size ! Or so I think - AFAIK, smaller get hits first. What if you build small WP with armor/shields and medium/large WP with weapons ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

I thought armor units got hit first...at least that's what the write-up says. If that isn't the case, then it should be clarified. (assuming one isn't being hit with armor-skipping weapons).

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

The item in planetary cargo with the fewest hit point total is destroyed first, regardless of what type or size of unit it is.

But, IIRC, the Last patch made it so that weapon platforms are always destroyed first so that troops can survive bombardment and be useable for invasion defense. They are still destroyed in the same order, and other cargo is then destroyed in the same order when all WPs are gone if the attacker keeps bombarding the planet.

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

Fryon is correct. What I have done is to use Large WP's with weapons, combined with Small WP's with armor/shields and maybe a weapon or something, calculated so that my "soak platforms" have less structure than my weapon-bristling WP's.

I agree with Rex that the WP hit should be randomized. This has been a request into MM for a long long time, but apparently it hasn't bubbled high enough to get done - making WP's hit first is as close as we've got, and it just occurred in the Last patch.

As for the numbers below, it didn't include training for +40 or more.

The real problem is the fundamental one with the whole to-hit mechanic in SE4. FACTORS should MULTIPLY and NOT ADD! I wrote several mathematical emails to MM about that and finally gave up. It would massively help out the balance of play, but it would also stand everything on its head. Maybe for SE5... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

PvK

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

"As for the numbers below, it didn't include training for +40 or more."

Yes I did. It ends up being canceled out by the modifers given to mounts on WPs.

Phoenix-D

Re: Do Weapons Platform Need Help?
 

just to add on the topic of planets and WPs and ships, in the later games the WPs are quite devastating if you have enemy fleets to also take care of. It appears that planetary napalm is sometimes the only way of quickly disposing of them - as a matter of fact i often load my BC+ sized ships with at least one large PN - 1200 damage per 2 turns is not to be ignored you know.