Drones drones drones
 

Newbie time again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

How a drone differ from a small ship? I have trouble finding them a usage that a frigate or destroyer could not do.

Pros : they dont require upkeep
cons : once launched, cant be retrieved

Aside that, what are the differences? Which roles can they do in a superior way of a ship?

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I got inspired by that movie, "The Impostor", and I've been using drones as strategy missiles, loaded with anti-planet warheads.
It works pretty good, though I think fighters are a more useful investment.

The only thing I don't like its that the AI never use them.......

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not true. Some custom races are moded to build drones and drone carriers.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Play Devnull mod with the Space Monsters. They'll show you how to use drones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think I have ever played beyond 250 turns. That should be the reason why I haven't see them.

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The default races don't use them much. But, some modded races will use them long before turn 250.

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can the vets around be more precise? Do they use drones, and for which use?

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Now you can use drones for recon, attack warp points.
They don't need to come home again, thus avoiding the stranded scout ship problem.

You can put alligience subverters on them, nasty.

Put solar panels on them and they Last longer.

Put beams on them and give them primary orders "some weapons range" instead of ram.

Make a cloaked drone launcher, load it with anti-planet drones, send it into your friends empires and park it in a storm, use when need arise.

If you have a surplus of minerals and mucho cargo space, build anti-ship drones to use just in case.

Generally though, they aren't all that valuable.. You won't win a game by using drones, I think.

[ May 08, 2003, 19:31: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

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Another con for drones:

Micromanagement. LOTS of micromanagement. They don't stack and can't be combined into fleets.

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Ruatha : I see that drones can be used in many missions, but it seems that the ones you listed could have been done by ships.

So? drones are an added game feature which are redundant with what already existed pre-gold, or do they have special abilities which let them fare better than ships in some situations. ? I'm more and more inclined that they dont really add anything new to a game.

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No, they do not really add anything to the game. They are currently poorly implemented. If they were cheaper, then maybe they could be more useful in general situations.

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Yes you can do everything you can do with drones at least as well with ships, but you have to pay maintenance for ships.
But I agree that in the unmodded game drones are too expensive. I reduced their cost by half in my games. Then they are quite useful for a human player IMO.
Still there are big problems for the AI: he will attack over and over again fleets of 20 or more warships with a goup of 4-15 drones, which is of course completely useless. The AI does simply not realize, that the attacked ship (drones always attack one single ship) is not alone!

[ May 08, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Q ]

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Ok, so to summarize, in unmodded games few if any should be encountered, as they are not that interesting.

I have this devnull mod to try too, with the space monsters laucnhing drones. So many mods and so little time!

Joke apart, could they not be used as super satellite which can move to place them in the right position? In warp points, or around planets? Basically defence stations but with orbital engines? Ponder ponder...

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Just tested a small drone design acting as a satellite : cost is nearly the same, but with 2 added benefits:

base move of 1 : can position itself between the planet and the agressor
-50 % defence bonus !

So? Do they not shine as advanced satellites? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
On a small drone, you have 40 kt remaining with this design. A shield for added resistance is a neat addition.

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The problem is supply, a sat don't run out of supply and disappear the turn before the enemy comes through the waypoint....

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I've picked up the habit of using drones as early scouts since they're so expendable. Otherwise, I'll probably use them for specialized purposes (like picking off lone stragglers/scouts) but not main combat missions. I'm still playing around with it.

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Drones do add some valuable abilities not available to ships, but they require some fairly high understanding to use them effectively. They're very easy to use inefficiently, and many players don't figure out what they're good for. But they are good for several things, if you can figure them out.

Basics advantages of drones over ships:

* No maintenance is very important, in some situations.
* If your drone carriers have scanner jammers, enemies can't tell if your transports (or other ships) are stuffed to the gills with drones, or not - and a ship stuffed with drones can be much more powerful than a ship, even if it's also way more expensive to build.
* Drones in cargo don't use any fleet supplies to move.
* Drones don't take damage to their components - they operate at 100% ability until they are completely destroyed.
* Drones have speed and defense bonuses.
* Drones can soak up more point-defense than fighters or seekers - a combination of all three can overcome fairly heavy PD investment.
* No happiness loss to your empire when they get destroyed.
* They don't give enemies a full +1 experience when destroyed - much less.
* In games with a low limit on maximum ships/units per game in space, they count as one unit (or zero units when before launch), not one ship, so total strength can be much greater.

PvK

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Drones in the unmodded game are only useful when you have a long period of peace in which to build up huge stockpiles of them (due to their high build cost).

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In Devnull, they get half price engines... and since engines are often the major part of the cost of a drone this could make them very attractive...

They get extra movement, though they can't use solar sails, so they're faster than ships until solar sails are developed...

They get higher defense bonuses than even an Escort (even though a Small Drone is larger)...

They require fewer command & control components (only a computer core instead of bridge/LS/CQ)

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I just lost a nice fleet to the Xi Chung (TDM) because they clobbered me with a stack of large drones when I invaded their home system.

These buggers have been annoyingly tough.

My point defense failed for the most part; could not hit other than at short/point blank range. This despite having sensors III and being trained 20/20. When I did hit, the drones soaked up A LOT of damage. I only managed to kill two or three, while losing 15 ships.

Xi Chung are berserkers, and had ECM III on the drones to boot. One hit obliterated a battleship easily.

If anyone knows, what is the drones inherent attack/defense bonus? Must have helped.

I never use drones (because of the cost), but this made me think. I finally did away with the drone threat, but it definitely required a massive rearmament of point defense... much more than I usually equip with a fleet. It can be a big surprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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No attack bonus, but +50 to defense.

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What is interesting was the points developped by PvK : mostly advantages on an empire level, whereas StoneMill spoke of the unique assets of drones in tac combat.

thx all, a very instructive set of posting. Definitively to be archived...

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I think that drones are usable only when you have sufficient production capacity. They take a lot of time to build and they need a carrier -> more micromanagement, but I have tested that fully developed drones take down any ship put against them. Of course, you need to have enough of them. I tested like this:

10 drones against 3 base ships. Drones won. Why? I put on them 2 warheads, engines, ECM and couple of shields. They soaked insane amount of fire before destroyed. They are superior when ship has no Talisman or it is not very experienced (ie. hits with every gun). Though, drones are not for novices to use.

Consider this: If planet can target max 10 targets at every combat turn (excluding PD), lets assume it destroys 10 drones at first salvo (assume that planet is full of platforms). Then drones come within range of PD which takes down 3 more. Furthermore next round planet takes 10 more and PD takes again 3 = 26 killed drones. But when the rest ram into planet making 1000 damage (or how much was that planet warhead damage?) and 10 -15 drones hitting planet will propably glass it (2 warhead in every drone).

So, fully developed and defended planet taken down without single ship loss, but loss of units only. I admit, I haven't tested this yet in practice, but Swarming tactics is the only way to use them and it is effective one too. The best advantage of a drone over fighter is that it can have full phased shields, which fighters can't have.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I actually sealed a win in a recent team game, by doing just that -- slipped some cloaked drone carriers into the enemy's home systems, and obliterated a half-dozen built-up worlds in each. Completely glassed about 1/3 to 1/2 of the enemy's real industrial capacity that way.

Granted, I and my teammate were already winning, it was only a matter of time ... but even if we hadn't been, those drones would have done some HEAVY damage to the enemy, all out of proportion to their cost.

...

It's a shame you can't put a starkiller component on a drone; it'd be a great way to pop entire enemy star systems. Heh.

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I like drones combined with temporal tech. Late game you can build more than one large one at a time, used defensively they can max out at +175 defense (berserker +10, racial +25, ECM +60, drone +50, events predictor +30), and with solar collectors can hang around forever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Using NSP's and swarm tactics they become much more than an annoyance to an enemy fleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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If you have temporal then why not just use temporal shifters? Might be able to produce a few extras with the cost difference between TS and NS and the range and damage difference is actually quite minor.

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They could also have a RP element - use them in situations where your race would not use manned ships (i.e. suicide missions).

Of course once you have MC this goes out the window as a reason.