Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Searching for the best AI's forgotten or unexposed?

The TDM Modpack provides some truly superior AI's as can be seen from both personal play and AI Death Matches I and II (Thanks MB).

But the AI Death Matches also highlight some non-TDM AI's that also seem to perform well. In AI Death Match I the Namovans by Alpha Kodiak finished tied for 7th approximately. In AI Death Match II, the Tessellate by MB (top 6 so far) are awesome and the Khrel by Rexxx finished in the top 12.

However, searches reveal there are many AI's that are not in the AI Death Matches or the TDM Modpack that were purported to be good (at least by the standards at the time). Some previously mentioned include Vandron, Hevordah, and Azorani by Alpha Kodiak; the Zorian and Chaos by Atraikius; and the Tesli'k by Gandalph.

So the best non-TDM AI's I've found so far are:
Tessellate (MB), Khrel (Rexxx), Namovans, Vandron, Hevordah, and Azorani (all Alpha Kodiak), Zorian, Chaos (both Atraikius), and Tesli'k (Gandalph).

Since there is so much knowledge in the forum from both the creators and the Users I would like to know what do you think:

1) Are any of the above AI's I listed basically equivalent to an AI already in the modpack?

2) There are many shipsets without AI's, but are there still any good AI scripts that are not distributed inside races?

3) Are any of the older AI's in need of just a few of the more modern tricks/ideas in order to make competitive but still mostly unique?

4) What races/AI's have I missed? What are the best non-TDM AI's in your opinion?

5) How do all the AI's we list compare with AI's already in AI Death Match 2? Which round would the have made it too?

[ May 09, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A good idea!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The non-TDM AI races in the Death Match II were:
Ekhazan
Khrel
Corrian
Azorani
Namovans
Tessellate
Tesli'k

The EEE, Fazrah and Gron, were very recent AIs (and good AIs) included into the TDM.

I'm happy you liked the Tessellate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But really, they never would have existed without the United Flora! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Namovans and Azorani were included in both Death Matches, and the Tesli'k played the second Death Match.
The other AIs were not included... just because nobody sugested their names... and looking back the bad performance of some AIs, really would liked to see your suggestions before start the second Death Match! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have not played with all of them... but believe all are good AI scripts.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. I don't think does exist equivalent AIs to these, into the modpack.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, don't remember other good AI scripts, but probably should exist more...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Believe the Sergetti for example, would need some work the make them competitive again. They were the first good AI script that I knew, but in my view, today they're less than average.
Think the Tesli'k/Namovans/Azorany could work a lot better with not many tunning.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't know. Can't remember more good AI scripts.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hard to say...
Some of the AIs you named, played the Death Match 2: The Azorani and Tesli'k reached the Second round, and the Namovans the Third round.
From the other Alpha Kodiak/Atraikius AIs, I would have expected good performances (like their other AIs included into the Death Match 2).

[ May 10, 2003, 00:49: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I to, always look forward to your AI Death Matches MB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

I'm happy to see that my Tesli'k got mentioned. I am currently working on updates to all 3 of my races and will update the links in my sig when I get them finished (soon).

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gandalph,
I just downloaded, nice job on Tesli'k, I look forward to adding them all to my TDM collection, so when you are finished; please let me know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 10, 2003, 01:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks JLS!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool!
Also, I remember that the Corrian were very close to reach the second round... they had some bad luck.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am really looking forward to these updates Gandalph. I hope the lessons from the death match will really give them a jump forward. Keep up the great work!

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

I am using MB's death match map and races to test against. I have done most work on Corrian and Ekhazon. The Corrian are pretty much finished (just a couple more minor tweaks) and the Ekhazon will soon follow. I will then get to work on the Tesli'k and my new, as yet unnamed, Organic race.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Both the Chaos and Zorians have some problems that I'm still working on; they may do fairly well once in a while, but more frequently seem to get battered by the other races I have in in my test games (typically try to use 10 - 14 of the best AI's of other modders, and 4 - 6 of my own). After the Orks and TDM Krill (they are a little different), I would say the best AI's of mine would be the AI's I wrote for the UCE and UCE Battle fleet (slightly different in aggressiveness and fleets).

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

The inside info on your AI's is great, Atraikius. I will definitely look into the UCE and UCE-BF with your updated AI's. I also anxiously await future tweaks to Chaos and Zorian.

One other question for you, how is your Mirak AI related to (and competitive against) all the other AI's you just mentioned?

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

I fear that all of my AI's could stand some rework. They are a bit dated, and mostly not really optimized for all of the capabilities that the later Versions of Gold give. Now, if I could just get some time to work on them.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

/me donates 15 minutes of spare time to Alpha Kodiak

Now if everyone would just do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

You have a lot of AI's, Alpha Kodiak! Of your AI's, which do you think pose the most challenge in their current form? The Namovans are the toughest and then? Which ones just need a few minor tweeks and updates here and there?

I find all the work you guys have put into this fascinating.

I'd gladly donate 15 minutes to all of you (if only it worked that way!)

[ May 13, 2003, 02:06: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

The Mirak are about on par with the Chaos. Some one had asked about AI's the use drones, the Mirak research drones early and use them fairly heavily (the UCE also use them a lot). If they get going, they get some interesting fleets with heavy use of drones, carriers, and CSM-V's - can really swamp P-D.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Well, I don't know the best place to post this, so I will start here.

Atriakius/Trooper - I downloaded the Chaos Legions from troopers excellent site. Today I noticed it had the default strategy type error that is generated by the .emp files being older than the AI_Strategies file. So I re-generated the 2,3, and 5k empire files. If anyone wants me to upload these corrected .emp files then let me know.

Mephisto - The Sallega 5K .emp file only uses 2k racial points. So I re-generated the 5k emp, only to notice in AI_General.txt that the sallega try to spend 6000 points and thus lose the temporal trait. I fixed the problem in my files by reducing maint from 115 to 110.

Then I also found two other races that don't use the correct # of racial point in AI_General. The Cryslonite use 750 extra points at both the 3k and 5k levels, so they end up losing the crystalline trait. The Abbidon have the opposite problem and just waste 500 points they could other use at the 5k level. Even though the Cryslonite and Abbidon are errors brought over from 1.84 Gold, I think TDM could easily fix them since the files are in the TDM directory already. I have fixed my Version of these if you would like copies, just ask.

If you can think of a specific place to post this, let me know.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks - do you happen to remember what the error was? I've made a lot of changes to them since I first posted them; I haven't had any errors come up on me, but would like to make sure that I didn't miss something.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Cybersol, thanks for the info!
My problem is that they are not "my" races and I'm reluctant to change other Modders files. Further, if I change them and request files for the next release of the TDM I might get non-fixed files back from the Modder and include them in the pack accidentally. So I would really like to ask you to post the Modders personally about the problem and ask them to sent me their revised files. You could really do me a favour with this!

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Upon adding the existing empire files manually and then switching to AI control once the game has started I got the invalid default strategy error in AI_DesignCreation for fighter attack, drone planet attack, and drone ship attack. I looked in AI_strategies and they were there so I knew it was just an old empire file. I then randomly added the chaos to games and saved the empire files out again. Now everything is good with the new empire files.

It was a similar situation to this problem with this problem with the Orks you mentioned Here.

Thanks for all you efforts. If you made a lot of changes, does that mean we will see new Versions soon?

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For the Sallega, I will galdy try to get in touch directly with God Emperor about the errors there.

Yet, as far as I can tell the Abbidon and Cryslonite are stock SEIV Gold even in TDM 3.30. The files have the same save dates as the ones in SEIV Gold and these races are not mentioned at all in the TDM Readme or release notes. So I can't find anyone to contact about these except you (if I am wrong please give me the names to contact). I could also maybe contact Aaron since the errors are in stock SEIV as well, but it would be easier and MUCH faster to just mod the corrections in TDM I think. I can give you more details, send you the files, take responsibility, whatever you need to fix these two races.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Good point, Cybersol. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Please sent me the correct stock files and I will include them in a future release. You find my EMail in the readme, I don't want to post it in the forum (SPAM).

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

cybersol, krsqk:

Thanks to both for the extra time (it would be cool if that really worked)!

As to which of my AI's are the best, the Rage have always been tough, and could probably be tweaked, and I like the Azorani quite a bit. The Vandron AI used to be pretty effective, but I haven't really tested it much since converting it to Gold.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Done and Done. Let me know if there is anything else I can do.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would like to help as well, in a few weeks...

The Vandron is one of my favorite Ship Sets. The Vandron and Atrocities Last Ship Set release are the Sets I personally use in all my games.

If the designer of the Vandron would not mind, I would like to do something with the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~
I do not have the README and the Vandron is not in TDM, does anyone know who the designer is, I have been using this race for over a year.

Am I correct in assuming this is Chewy027 Ship Set design?

Alpha Kodiak if it is ok with you, I would like a crack at the Vandron AI.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~

[ May 15, 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Cybersol, I've worked a lot on pirates and pexlerr AIs, but they haven't been tested against other AIs to see their real efficiency.
Spacesharks'AI is a unmodded Version of the TDM orks.

I'm interested in the result of your investigations, to add info about the quality of the AIs in the racedir.

I'm also interested by the working Version of emp files for Chaos race.

see y@

[ May 15, 2003, 15:01: Message edited by: trooper ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The designer is definitely Chewy027, you can find the Vandron readme on the Gold CD in Extras\AlphaKodiakChewyRaceStylePack.zip.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would like to help as well, in a few weeks...

The Vandron is one of my favorite Ship Sets. The Vandron and Atrocities Last Ship Set release are the Sets I personally use in all my games.

If the designer of the Vandron would not mind, I would like to do something with the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~
I do not have the README and the Vandron is not in TDM, does anyone know who the designer is, I have been using this race for over a year.

Am I correct in assuming this is Chewy027 Ship Set design?

Alpha Kodiak if it is ok with you, I would like a crack at the Vandron AI.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I definitely don't mind if you want to see what you can do with the Vandron AI. Just keep me posted on how things are going.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Thanks, for the confirmation; Cybersol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks, for the opportunity; Alpha Kodiak. I will get started on the Vandron Saturday Mourning and have it for you Sunday PM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 16, 2003, 01:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry for the long reply time, but it is mostly your fault. I found the race directory and could not stop downloading for a little while. Guess that means I like it, a lot.

After that I was thinking about your insightful questions. I think some sort of AI indication in the race directory is a wonderful idea. The first (and easiest) thing I would implement is to use the results of MB's AI Death Match Two. 32 races competed, so I think the Top 18 (third round), Top 12 (fourth), and Top 6 (sixth) would be the designations to use. Here is the break down, ignore parenthesis for now:

AI-DM2-Top6: Tessellate (MB), CueCappa (Ro), Aquilaeian (MB), United Flora (Ro), Space Vikings (Ro), Narn Regime (Me)

AI-DM2-Top12: Orks (At), Toron (Me), EEE (Re), Khrel (Re), Fazrah (Bl), Pyrochette (MB)

AI-DM2-Top18: Namovans (AK), Sallega (GE), Rage (AK), Earth Alliance (Me), Gron (Re), Puindon (TG)

This lets people know how the AI's performed when head to head. And as a side benefit maybe more people would want to have their AI involved in a future death match if it ever takes place.

The second thing I might do is note the AI author. This gives the AI designer recognition, while allowing people to make a connection with the Category systems, such as the AI DM2 rating above. I noted the AI authors in parenthesis above. AIs written by these DM winner authors and also the rest of the TDM authors that have been updated in the Last year are probably pretty decent in my experience.

Thus logically, the third thing I would note is whether the AI was recently redesigned for improved competitiveness. Reasonable breakpoints for categories might be before gold or after gold. If you wanted more categories 6 months after gold, 12 months after gold, etc. Updating the AI just to work with gold would not count, but updating it to use drones or other enhancements would.

If these AI ideas would actually make it onto your site, I should be able to help with the dirty work of tracking some of this down. I now have most of the shipsets in the race directory. BTW, I have your races and they look great, still have not had a chance to play against them though. I will let you know.

As for the Chaos empire files, would you like them via email or uploaded to the forum?

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Thanks for all these infos. I'll try to add them and any future infos about the races asap.

I've got few infos from authors about their shipsets, so I generaly have to keep the list up to date by myself, and it's far too much work for one guy...

You can send this files by email at ebergbauer AT free.fr, it's useless to upload them on the forum.

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

BTW, who are GE, RE, TG, GI ?

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GE = God Emperor
RE = Rexxx
TG = TAmpa Gamer

GI? A typo?

Re: Best unmodded non-TDM AI\'s
 

Thanks, MB! You're right as usual.

Just in case anyone else was wondering.
Here is the full list of abbreviations:

MB = Master Belisarius
Ro = Rollo
Me = Mephisto
At = Atraikius
Re = Rexxx
Bl = Blade
AK = Alpha Kodiak
GE = God Emperor
TG = Tampa Gamer

Above were discussed in previous Posts
----------------
Below are for the rest of this post

Ol = Oleg
TC = TerranC
DS = Deathstalker
AL = Andres Lescano
EC = Emperor's Child

Here is a list of Non-TDM AI's that I have been collecting. These are races where I'm under the impression that the author at least tried to create a unique and challenging (or a least interesting) AI. I have yet see how good they all are though.

(Name) (Last AI Update) (Author)

Dominion Imperium 01/03 AJC

Azorani 05/02 AK
Hevordah 12/01 AK
Namovan 07/02 AK
Regency Pre-Gold AK
SEOR Pre-Gold AK
Tylmai 12/01 AK
Vandron 12/01 AK
UCE Pre-Gold AK

Star Wars Yuuzhan Vong 04/02 AL

Chaos 12/02 At
Mirak 06/02 At
UCE(AI Only) 12/02 At
UCE2(AI Only) 12/02 At
Zorian 12/02 At

Cephalopeia 12/01 DS
Dragon Pre-Gold DS
EEEvil 04/02 DS
Nostropholo 04/02 DS
Red Gauntlet 04/02 DS
Star Wars Empire 03/02 DS
Star Wars Rebel 04/02 DS
Starwolf Pre-Gold DS
Y'Gathian 04/02 DS
Zeta Reticuli Pre-Gold DS

Slaanesh 03/02 EC

Borg(Some Mods) 02/03 GE

Tessellate 02/03 MB

Tholians 06/02 Ol based on AK

Sol Coalition 05/02 TC based on Ro

Notably missing is Atrocities, because I know his AI's are derived from stock AI's, but I do not know how extensive the modifications are. I figure if much work went into the AI it would be for the AST Mod. Please tell me if I am wrong.

The reason I made this list is so you guys can tell me what I missed. Be it an AI you wrote to be competitive or an AI you play against that seems as good as some of the TDM AI's.