OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Well it looks like the phone lines to my street have been diced and sliced.

So I may not be around to play pbw games for a few days or host them....

I have work access but i will not game from here.

Depending on the speed of the repair.......

Sorry if that causes any problems....

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Bumber dude. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Underground cables?

If so, it sounds like someone forgot to call their municipality to find out the location of the cables before they dug.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Look at it this way- they just hit the phone cables. Could have been worse.

-glances down at the "Warning: underground Hydrogen Pipeline" signs at school-

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

If so, it sounds like someone forgot to call their municipality to find out the location of the cables before they dug.

Ha! it is the municipality that is digging

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm, maybe it is a new U.S. campain to bring our northen brothers into our fold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm, maybe it is a new U.S. campain to bring our northen brothers into our fold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep time to break out the styrofoam cups and string http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

beer in a cup where....

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahhh...the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh no, it will release hydrogen and water will form! Not that! Hydrogen is nowhere near as dangerous as people make it out to be. The Hindenburg and other dirigibles created a very bad impression in the public's eye about hydrogen power...

[ May 30, 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Last time I heard, hydrogen in a confined space with oxygen is extremely explosive.

And you do get water or rather water vapour:

2H2 + O2 = 2H2O

if I remember my chemistry of many years ago.

[ May 29, 2003, 00:06: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Close... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It was the Hindenburg. Lindenburg (or was it just Lindburg) was the name of a pilot who's child was kidnapped.

Or so my garbled history recalls... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Yeh, I think you are right, it was the Hindenburg.

I think the reason the Hindenburg did not explode was because it was not in a confined space and oxygen was not mixed with the hydrogen.

As the hydrogen and the oxygen were separated, the burning essentially took place on the periphery and moved inwards as the oxygen moved inwards.

Also air is only about 20% (21%?) oxygen, it is diluted and the rate of burning is much reduced than if it was pure oxygen.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Fryon: and release a bit of heat, just incidently. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

At the least it would be a heck of a lot more expensive to repair, heh.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Yes, Hydrogen combines with Oxygen to make water and release heat. If you have ever held a match near gasoline you may have noticed that gasoline tends to do the same sort of thing... (making water and carbon dioxide in this case). Fyron is still correct when noting that Hydrogen is not as risky as the public percieves it to be (bad risk assesment, at the time dirigible travel was probably safer than airplane travel which was still in its infancy). I would tend to argue that the Hindenberg got played up in the press at the time bc/ dirigible technology was backed by the Germans and German/US relations were on their way down in the run up to World War II. This misperception that hydrogen is horribly dangereous is unfortunately still with us.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

you guys should go argue on irc sometime.

So now I am back on... And every game is due.

Sugar.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Yes, the Hindenburg was the hydrogen blimp that blew up. The Lindenburg was the giant blimp filled with moldy cheeze. (See how I tied all the threads together with that comment? ain't I clever? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Took me awhile to relocate this article:

"The Hindenburg was covered with a cotton fabric that had been swabbed with a doping compound to protect and strengthen it. Unfortunately, the doping compound contained a cellulose acetate or nitrate (used in gunpowder). This compound was followed by a coating of aluminum powder (which is used in rocket fuel). Additionally, the structure was held together using wood spacers and ramie cord; the furnishings were make of silk and other fabrics; and the skeleton itself was duralumin coated with lacquer. Added together, all of these made the craft itself highly flammable. In DiChristina's article, Bain was quoted as saying that perhaps "... the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel."
http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/blame.htm

Gecko

[ May 30, 2003, 19:37: Message edited by: geckomlis ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I second that motion! And since only Tesco and I are there, the vote passes! You all need to drop by #se4 on gamesnet IRC network. You have no choice now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is explosive, yes. But not really so explosive to be more worried about hydrogen than other gases and liquids running through pipes (save things like water that don't combust http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But not so much heat to be a great risk over other things running through pipes.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And I am still correct in the first part of my statement. I never said that hydrogen was not explosive, just that it is not as dangerous as many people erroneously believe it to be.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ May 30, 2003, 19:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

an error has occured:

Won't overwrite topic file 000001

Please inform the board administration of this error so that they may fix the problem. Thank you!

Anyone else gettign this error when they start a new topic

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Started happening around 1 PM PST yesterday (may 29). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Fyron, if hydrogen is as safe as you say it is, I challenge you to go into a large enclosed chamber filled with hydrogen and oxygen and generate a electrical spark.

I don't think you would do it. I certainly wouldn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But yes, hydrogen is less dangerous if it is not in an enclose space and is not mixed with oxygen.

In fact hydrogen alone or mixed with an inert gas is no danger at all. In those conditions, I would not be concerned with generating an electrical spark. So change the conditions and hydrogen's dangerosity changes.

So, it all depends upon the conditions.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

You missed my point. I never said hydrogen was absolutely safe. I said it is not super dangerous as many people fallaciously believe it to be. I would not enter such a room with any explosive gas (plus oxygen) in it. There is nothing special about hydrogen as compared with other combustible gases (well aside from the fact that it is completely clean burning and produces no CO2, CO, etc., but that is an entirely different issue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

[ May 31, 2003, 01:03: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

whats up with it...

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

No idea.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does this mean we are relegated to talking about the same things over and over for all eternity? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

It did, but not anymore!

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No Fyron, you are are missing my point. No explosive substance is safe. And to imply that it is somewhat safe, is being irresponsible.

[ May 31, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

[ May 31, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: tbontob ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Tbontob, then you did not get my point. I never said hydrogen was safe, I always said it was not any more dangerous than other explosive gases/liquids.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Hey!!! Pull my finger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ...I will let you decide if it is dangerous or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

No Fyron, what you did say and I quote:

"Oh no, it will release hydrogen and water will form! Not that! Hydrogen is nowhere near as dangerous as people make it out to be. The Hindenburg and other dirigibles created a very bad impression in the public's eye about hydrogen power..."

There is no mention of other gases. That came later when you tried to shift the topic to make it appear you were right.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Ever heard of the term hyperbole? Overstatement/exaggeration for effect?

I did not ever attempt to shift the topic, I went along with the flow of conversation.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I have heard of hyperbole. In fact, I would suggest I heard of it before you did.

And yes, you did shift it. There is no mention of other gases.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Why are you so obsessed with the first post? The first post is not the entirety of the conversation, you know.

And no, I shifted nothing. There is plenty of mention of other gases, if you look at the entire conversation. The intial post was not the entirety.

Don't use any arrogant agism Tbontob. All that does is make you look foolish.

Since you know what a hyperbole is, you should be able to recognize that the post you are obsessing over was indeed a hyperbole. I exaggerated it to make a point. It was not written as an end-all, beat-all statement about hydrogen being perfectly safe. You seem to think it was, when it certainly was not.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Not obsessed. It was a post you made which gave the impression that hydrogen is not very dangerous.

And trying to explain it away by saying it was hyperbole does not make it any less dangerous.

And trying to divert the topic by comparing it to other explosive gases doesn't make it any less dangerous.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He's not obsessing with the first post in this thread - if nothing else, that should be clear from the simple fact that he is discussing the dangers of hydrogen, which isn't even mentioned until the fourth reply to this thread. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, you did shift the conversation a bit: you were the first person in this thread to mention combustable gases other than Hydrogen. The other materials listed include: Oxygen (gaseous oxidizer under Standard Temperature and Pressure), carbon dioxide (non-flamable gas under STP), water (liqud under STP, non-flammable), and gasoline (Liquid under STP, flammable) [Edit]geckomlis mentioned a few others that I missed, all solids under STP[/Edit] <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny - I more read Tbontob's Posts as him taking exception to you making fun of Pheonix-D's response that worse things could have happened in Tesco's area than some cut phone lines.

And actually, it would be a relatively simple matter for a broken hydrogen pipeline to cause some serious problems - all it would take is for the Hydrogen to diffuse into the air slightly before encountering a source of ignition.

Besides, even if it just causes a fire, accidental fires usually cause more serious problems for people than broken phone lines usually do.

[ June 01, 2003, 00:56: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Can we pretend I never mentioned hydrogen please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

thank goodness the lines were only cut for one day.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never mentioned the first post in the thread. I mentioned the first post I made regarding the hydrogen issue.

Tbontob, I never once said it was safe. Everything I said about it is that it is not as dangerous as most people believe it is. This in no way says that it is not dangerous. You are indeed obsessing over one minor statement that isn't even a large part of what I have said. Go ahead and keep obsessing over it. I am through going in circles with you. You are not interested in amending your misconceptions, only in trying to make jabs at me. Nothing I say makes any dent in your stubborn resolve against me, so there is no point in continuing.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

"I never mentioned the first post in the thread. I mentioned the first post I made regarding the hydrogen issue."

Fyron, you seem to post something then later post a clarification. Because this isn't what you said- it may have been what you MEANT, but you said "Why are you so obsessed with the first post? The first post is not the entirety of the conversation, you know." which could easily be taken to mean the very first post.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, you just said <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">leaving it at "the first post" rather than "my first post" (which is what you now seem to say you meant) - and they mean two very different things. Odd behaviour, for a person who is often empasising language. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Said: no, you didn't - specifically. Implied: yes, you did. You implied it so strongly on that first post of yours in this thread when you said <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You almost outright said the stuff was safe. "nowhere near " parses identically to "far from" - thus you were calling Hydrogen far from as dangerous as people make it out to be, which strongly implies that it is safe. Granted, you later said it wasn't, but you also don't seem to be conceeding that you ever implied Hydrogen was safe. Further, Tbontob never actually claimed that you said Hydrogen was safe - he said you implied it, he said you gave the impression - he never said you said that Hydrogen was safe [edit] my bad - he did once towards the very beginning, which you seem to be obsessing over - but the useage of "say" was light enough that it could mean imply; a one-word slip, perhaps.[/edit]. Odd that you don't pick up on that, for a person who emphasises language and word meanings so much. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The first time you didn't use "not as", you used "nowhere near" which does imply that it isn't dangerous. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't seem interested in mending yours, either. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It would appear that the reverse applies as well, Fyron.

[ June 01, 2003, 09:02: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

I couldn't have said it better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well as long as we are correcting everyone in this thread, I take a little poke at Geo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The ship in question was a rigid airship, not a blimp. Blimps are still very much in favor, while the rigid exist only in memory and advanced design papers. Of note on the Hindenburg is the fact that the gas was not grounded to the airframe, and the ability of low pressure hydrogen to store static energy was unknown at that time. So when the air frame was grounded, the gas would have been required to overcome the built in impedance of the gas bag before it could discharge. In doing so, it would have created a spark. Anyone who works with rotary wing aviation can tell you how much energy an ungrounded airframe can hold. So while the sabotage theory makes for a good story, it was in all likelihood an engineering short fall.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

oh the humanity...

Well during the down time I missed about 4 pbw turns...

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

I hesitate to join a thread that's degenerated into bickering already... but what the hell. Back on the Hindenberg, there has been some pretty convincing modern research on this. The conclusion was that it was not the Hydrogen that was responsible for the (intial at least) combustion. Apparently the doping agent used on the outer skin, in the right conditions, was highly flammable and this was what caused the disaster. I saw a documentary where they had analysed the old film and could demonstrate from the spread of the flames that it was the skin and not the gas that was burning.

As for the relative danger of Hydrogen gas - well, here's an anecdote for you. Back in chemistry class about 20 years ago, a popular (with the kids anyway) experiment involved producing a test-tube full of hydrogen. I forget the exact reaction involved, it may have been some kind of acid-on-iron-filings thing. Anyway, that little test-tube containing hydrogen was then ignited using a lighted taper, producing one hell of a bang and (sometimes, though I never saw it) busting the test-tube entirely. From that I have always concluded that hydrogen/oxygen reactions can release a lot of energy.

However, I had also heard the argument that Fyron puts forward that Hydrogen airships are not as dangerous as they are generally perceived to be. So, why is that? Does that kind of violent small-scale reaction just not scale up?

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Did you know the the municipality had to inform itself in writing 30 days in advance that it was digging so that the municipality could determine if lines were buried there.
This did not happen.

There is a fine for this.

So I asked our mayor if the municipality was going to fine the municipality over this.

( The mayor lives around the conor so you can drop in and say hi. He makes a really good jerk chicken on the bbq )

He just laughted

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

As someone who works with Hydrogen gas, among many other gasses, I can say that both industry standards and safety practices as well as OSHA requirements do consider Hydrogen as very dangerous.

For further reading on OSHA Hydrogen safety requirements:

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad..._Version=FALSE

Slick.

Re: OT__For All Tesco PBW Games Playing and hosting
 

Compressed hydrogen is dangerous, yes. But, the Hindenburg and other airships have given the public a false impression that it is much more dangerous than it is. People will gladly get into a car powered by exploding gasoline, but will have great fears/reservations of getting into a car powered by exploding hydrogen, even though it is really not more dangerous than the exploding gasoline (as that is essentially how cars are powered). And no, not everyone would react this way, but a lot of people do. But the thing is, much less hydrogen has to be used as fuel than gasoline (and other fuels commonly used), so the net effect is that using hydrogen is not much more dangerous than other fuels in most applications.