My AI Design Q&A
 

I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game. My first attempt is a normal (no special racial trait) race. Starting with nothing between the *Begin* and *End* lines of the AI files to make the race from scratch. To learn, I am mining the top 14 AI’s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. I have searched through the forum for many topics related to AI design and read a lot of information, but I still have some questions.

If you design AI’s, then maybe you can help. Reading through AI Text Files Tips & Hints I noticed many of the bugs mentioned there that seem to have been fixed, but I still wonder about some of them. Things that seem to be fixed, please tell me if I am wrong: boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever. Things that still don’t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn’t use recyclers or resource converters; still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together (though it works for already marked mine fields on the mine sweeper type) ; planet based fleet training still not effective.

1) Can the AI now effectively use cloaking abilities on Space Yard Ships? MB uses cloak, Mephisto still does not, and Rollo doesn’t even use Space Yard Ships.
2) If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons for a light cruiser than a destroyer for instance, then I notice the AI often thinks the destroyer is newer and the light cruiser is obsolete. I thought this only happened after the dreadnaught class was reached?
3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.
4) I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding) to have the AI specifically call for normal armor without any special abilities?
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

I’m sure I will have more questions later. Any assistance you can provide will be much appreciated.

[ July 18, 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, I also have learnt a lot from MB, the Master with the AI.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boarding, not just right for the AI yet.
Kamikazi and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Experts may elaborate, more then I.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI does not use Converters.
Recycelers, the AI may not be smart enough here either. I don't use this for my AI. If you use this, put with a Colony that builds a yard.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.

~~~~~

(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship) , the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build..

(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators .
As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)

(5) Great stirring question. This depends on what you want that AI to do, and thier are many ideas on this. And should be debated by many http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Inregards to Colonizers, I listen to MB's advise. Actually take all the advise form all the Players, but the Experts I mentioned above, will have the answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

First, thanks for the response, JLS.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you elaborate on what is wrong with boarding? I am not using it in this AI yet, but I want to have the option in the future.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was a really bad bug before that would produce recon satellites infinitely, but I'm sure it was fixed. Ah, history.txt fixed in 1.51.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe the problem is they do not know how to move ships over to the recycler before scrapping.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Scout and Colony ships with mine sweeping and cloak died horribly without sweeping any of the mines. Mine sweepers will de-cloak for a previously marked mine field, but then they will cloak and move forward and happily die without sweeping any mines on the next warp point that has not been marked. So it sort of works for mine sweepers, but not at all for the rest.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ship training seem somewhat useful, but the AI doesn't move ships there intentionally, they just happen to land there by chance and get some training. Fleet training at one time was useless because the AI broke and remade fleets very often, but I have not tested if this was fixed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1) I was talking about a ship space yard not a BSY. To go in cloaked and repair crippled ships is how the AI would use it, I think. But it might mess up the yard capability when at the front line resupply depot.
2) Switched from missles CSM1 to beams DUC3, light cruiser designed turn 5, destroyer replaces turn 6. Destroyer is below light cruiser in designcreation file.
3) I have seen them try for a while, over and over.
4) If only that worked. The problem is you end up getting the highest damage resistance armor, which is scattering. But earlier you get smaller armor. Makes too comlicated to build the rest of the design to your exact specifications. Sometimes I just want Armor III and not the others.
5) How the file gets processed, and everyones experience with this, is really what I would like to know.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'

===

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false

Will this not yield AI ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here I was lending assistance, to you. Not to make to many Recon Sats in your Vehicle build File, because to the AI SAT launcher, a Satellite is a Satellite, and it may look pretty weird having 40 or more early level Psychic or Temporal Recon sats with your AI's 100 anti -ship Satellite group. Wouldn’t you say?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I may be misunderstanding you Cybersol, do you think the AI should make Planet Training Facilities at all in base se4?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting Cybersol, you had the answer to your own qestion.
Now, we need the trick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The answer, I gave is the current way it is set up for the Base se4, default files.

In AIC the AI will place Ablative, Armor and then Emisive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Not the fancy expensive stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cybersol, I feel, I will learn from you, regarding Base se4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I wish you all the success http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From scratch?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looks like a good approach.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with your observations...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope, I don't know how to do it... Think Aaron "fixed" it in several patches, but the behavior is still there.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Think you can do something like:
Misc Ability 1 Name := Armor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10

Or use the "Armor Spaces Per One := 10"

The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...
For example, a BC design (size 600K) with the line: Armor Spaces Per One := 60, will have 8 Scattering Armors!!

But if you put this line at the end of the Misc Abilities:
Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 10
If this design still have 60K of space, then, the AI will put 1 Scattering Armor and 1 Standard Armor.

In the same way, if the ship have "free" space, the AI will complete the design using the best available Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I can help you, just drop me a mail.

Best Regards

JL

[ June 12, 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, thanks! But I just have learned from Mephisto, Alpha Kodiak, Atraikius and Rollo... Think they're more creative than me and the true "Masters".

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, but I saw the Colony ships of the Vikings board ships... and explode!
But consider that these kind of ships can be used for other purposes as auxiliary ships.


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In my view, at least the AI does a decent job (I think!).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with you... but still will be by chance.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good question. My oppinon is that the Armor Cloak is good because give the bonus and a little protection while cloaked. Anwyay, a lone space shipyard usually is dead meat...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Think he was talking about the rotation between designs, that at some point the AI start to do (even using the same name!).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with you.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree... but the AI will try to use the "best" available Armor (it mean, Scattered Armor if have the tech and the space).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hug, thanks! But really think that we're most the time blind, and the trial/error and exchange experiences, are the only way to find most of the answers...

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You made me think and go test things so much that I started to post before your edit, but finished afterwards.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

[quote]Originally posted by cybersol:

Quote:

The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal. I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is exactly my approach... and the approach of most of the "modern" modders.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

bumped

[ June 12, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, it seemed like a good idea when I started, but it takes longer than you would think. At least it forces me to learn about and make a decision on everything. So far I'm just focusing on the bussiness end of the AI, not the political or speech, etc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well that explains why you cloak them. I'm implementing space yard ships now, so I have not tested them. My impression from previous Posts is that they are supposed to go to a front line resupply base and construct from there. If they indeed build lots of stuff in the middle of nowhere then I will have to cloak them or not build them as well.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It works better now that I call the destroyer and lower "light attack ship" and the light cruisers to battle cruisers "main attack ship". I hope it doesn't decided to produce more light attack ships later in the game though. CSM1 destroyers versus dreadnaughts would be amusing but not effective.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I reached that conclusion also. If the armor were give an ability like "normal armor" and that could be called in the misc section that would work SO much better. Alas that requires modding though.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. This is a really interesting inquiry, and might deserve its own thread, but it would be all you guys anyway.

MB, what you describe is what I though at first also. AI_Research and AI_Planet_Types definitely work the way you describe, but they don't loop and are not numbered. I will have to test this out some more, because as you say it determines optimal queue length and behaivor.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

Please, do not consider AI vs AI, but consider a good Human Player will have a Solid 100 Mine field probably back to back, for your AI to over come.

[ June 12, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Bump

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Please, no whos on first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 15, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think we are understanding each other, but just to make sure. I used kamikaze meaning suicidal in reference to how the AI uses "Mine Sweeper" Design Type ships. These do not join fleets, so I also mentioned that I use a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" or "Boarding Ship" Design Type ship with minesweeper for fleet use.

So I am still testing, but right now I am using a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" class design in a fleet minesweeping and fleet repair role. Fleets are set to be around size 20 at the start to 60 or more in the late game. These support ships have 5 to 10 minesweeping components and 0-2 repair components as they increase from LC to DN. I am putting these in fleets at a 1 to 3 ratio with the main attack ship so far. Overkill for the late game probably, but seems good for late early-mid game when the AI has the most problems with mine fields.

If the don't move through minefield flag is true remember the fleet will not move through marked minefield until the minesweeper class clears them. But they will still walk over new mine fields like they are not there. If it is false then you will lose some scouts and colony ships unnecessarily but your fleets should be move straight through.

As for the other lone wolf "Mine Sweeper" class ships, they are basically all minesweepers because they are going to die on a large minefield at some point. If they run into a fleet they are toast anyway because they are alone. That is why I called them suicidal.

As I said, I'm still testing and this just what I am using now. MB and others have much more experience. Hope this helps.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

More questions:

6) As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has 5 mine layer components. Since their secondary ability is cargo storage and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
7) Does anyone know how to fix the fact that the AI retrofits ships and then leaves when they are only half done repairing?

[ June 12, 2003, 08:46: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~~~

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This appears conflicting, if you Modified the se4 Default setting of = False to true

AI setting file:
Ships don't move through minefields := True

Will the AI player (1) actually? ~ “ once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definitely clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.”

It may be recommended with base se4, that you set Mine Sweeper availability to be a high priority tech to Research, if you wish your AI to expand?

=

Once AI player (1) has Mine Sweeper tech, and a treaty-will this AI move to Player (2) then Un-Toggle the Players (2) minefield and attempt a move to sweep Players (3) minefield?

Then, what if… Player (1) had mine sweepers all ready, but had not moved to upsweep players (2) prior to the agreement (Still marked) would a move after this treaty, un-toggle Players (2) Minefield, even if there are still mines present? If so, would Player (1) Minesweepers move in an attempt to sweep players (3) Minefield?

======================================

I assert this scenario, not to be a wise guy, but only that I was on the premise you wanted a un-MODED AI for an unmodded game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">“ I use true for ships don't move through minefields ” In the AI settings file.
By this change of the se4 original data, You have in fact made your first MOD to se4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In doing this you have changed the way the AI, will intrepid Sceneries, and you may not have the results you would anticipate for that AI.

There is a reason this is default false, for original se4.
I can assure the default intent of :=False is not to have the AI Sacrifice Combat Ships foolishly in another player’s minefield until all mines are depleted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 17:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, by definition in creating a AI, I am modifying the AI files of a race. So all changes to the AI files of that race are fair game. "Ships don't move through minefields" is in xyz_AI_Settings.txt so I can change it to whatever I want. But I am not changing the data files, thus in essence the goal in a competitive AI for the unmodded game. This is similar to the goals of the TDM Modpack for instance, only on the scale of only one race for me right now.

Now their is a trade-off to both settings of ships don't move through minefields. If it is true, then only "Mine Sweeper" Design types will move into marked minefields. Predictable and since they travel alone, they could be prey to an intelligent human opponent. If it is false, then the behaivor is less predictable but the AI acts as though it doesn't know about the minefield. So it sends innocent ships without minesweepers to their demise.

So to answer you question explicitly, the AI will move a "Mine Sweeper" design type into the mine field even when set to true. At that point if at least one ship survives, my experience so far is that it will clear the marked minefield. It may be smart and clear these marked minefield when making a treaty, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Yes, ship construction, an early weapon, point defense, and then mine sweepers are early research priorities for the AI IMHO.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even if it dosen't, as soon as a ship enters that sector and dosen't die, the field marker gets cleared.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks SJ, that is what I was trying to say the sentence before that.

Any thoughts on questions 1-7) from the P&N Master?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~~~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Great tip, MB. I am going to use Armor Cloak more for my AI Designs
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI select the hull, in basis of the ship design. For example, you will see that my AIs never use the "Transport" hull.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. Think the only way is to include repair ships in the fleets...

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I finished testing this and you (as usual) are correct. It seems to start at the top of the queue for that ai state every turn looking for something to build. If the requirements are satisfied then it moves down to the next item. So redundant lines really will not help. Now I have to revisit all my queues.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, selecting the small transport hull is easy (via majority component). But getting it to use 5 mine layers as the required components instead of 8 cargo storage seems impossible. Bummer.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Thanks, guys for answering my questions.

Summary of what I have learned from the questions so far:
1) If you use a cloak on ship space yards, don't expect any production. But this might be a good thing.
2,3,4,6,7) These are all slight imperfections in how the AI works, you can't do anything about them except live with them.
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

New Question:
8) Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply EXCEPT colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize. (I'll probably have to live with this one too, unfortunately).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am a newbie like you but I do not want to play with imperfections http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cybersol, what was actually covered in this thread so far, on 1-5 even 6 and 7 was just berly touched on and I don/t see many se4 AI resolutions in most or the tricks you talked about. How can you say that it is understood, when none of your topics has been really discussed. Accept a few points from Master Belisarius and JLS.
I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7. You seem to always miss quote the participating parties here in your thread. You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain topic of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or is it actualy really still broken.

EDIT:

"How do you think it works?"

A: Does boarding work for the AI
B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern
C: Should the AI build recyclers
D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don’t work for the AI
E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work
1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI
2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear
3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.
4: I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don’t want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused even more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.
5: ok here, good advise from MB but will the AI use the lines after 11?
6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers
7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship do in se4
8:

[ June 13, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, most will not be apparent from the players point of view. But they can be very frustrating for the aspiring AI modder.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree 100% that we have not seen many resolutions to 2-4 and 6-7. I was hoping that summarizing might lead someone to correct me if I was wrong about them being imperfections we have to live with. Or they would interject with a novel trick that would solve one of the questions.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

Quote:

I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, MB was the one that uses cloaks on his space yard ships. He also said he prefers that they not produce anything because they tend to do wierd things. Together, this clears up why he uses cloaks while others (mephisto for example) do not.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

Quote:

You seem to always miss quote the precipitating parties here in your thread.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All I can say is the quotes were accurate at the time I begin posting my reply. Edits after that sometimes changed the content of the original message. Also, through the detail of always putting the author at the head of each quote, you can tell I take quotation very seriously. All in all, this is a strong comment to make and it seems a little too personal.

EDIT: For example you just removed thing I quouted about teachers and students.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

Quote:

You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain objective of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or actualy really is still broken in se4.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What do you want to know? Feel free to ask questions, I think I have gained understanding about what to do with 1) and 5) if you want me to explain more of what I learned. As I said before I still waiting and hoping for solutions to the others.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

Quote:

You say you (need help) but it seems you are trying very hard to Treach your views, instead of the student listening to the advise of the experts

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First of all, I revere and respect the experts, because only through trying this can I full understand how much effort they put into making this game better for all of us.

Yet JLS asked my opinion on whether minesweeping was feasible by the AI, so I gave it. Was I supposed to just not respond? I did feel I a little knowledge here because I had just spent some time looking into minesweeping. I was focused on this issue because an effective AI must deal with mines if it is to continue to expand or even just attack.

[ June 13, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Cybersol, I realized it sounded personal sorry, I am just frustrated I guess.
But from what I have read no one but MB has come up to the plate.
I added some points below if anyone can still clarify them.
I have made 2 AI design and if they are not right then I will need to change them.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I'm going quoteless here, but these are all responses to Grand Lord Vito.

First of all, read the entire thread by the TDM modders that I quoted earlier. It is great advice, though some of it is a little outdated. Here is the link again.

A: Does boarding work for the AI

From what I have seen the TDM Vikings (by Rollo) use it extensively. I am still wondering what JLS observed to make it seem ineffective.

B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern

He was basically saying that it is not a good idea to build too many of them in the construction_vehicles file because you will then have 40 recon satellites in a sector which is just a waste.

C: Should the AI build recyclers

It will never move ships there intentionally before it scraps them. It might by chance end up scrapping over a world with a recycler and get the benefit that way. Up to you whether that makes them worth building or not.

D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don't work for the AI

Both MB and I have said they work ok, but not great. Why do you think they don't work?

E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work

It works in the same sense as recylcers, the AI doesn't move a ship or a fleet into that sector intentionally to train it. If it happens to be in that sector a couple of turns for other reasons it will receive training. Also, according to mephisto in that thread above, the AI used to break up and reform fleets a lot so fleet training was even less effective. I still have not heard whether this is still true or not. So ship training probably couldn't hurt, especially on planet types where the AI ships tend to hover for a turn or more. Fleet training, need some input from the experts.

1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI

Somewhere in that thread they describe how the AI uses SYS. There are 2 roles they can play, ship rescue and movable construction bases. MB values the ship rescue role (which they can do while cloaked) but not the construction base role (which he can disable by using a cloak).

2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear

Well, for now I am using a different name but the same design type when the weapons compliment changes. I haven't approached the late game to many times in testing yet, so I don't know if I will need to do additional work like adding a second DN class with a different weapons compliment (see Death Match 2 thread for more info here).

3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.

4: I don't suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don' want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.

I explain both the limits of my modding and the trade-offs of the true versus false settings in previous Posts. Look back for answers. If you still have questions, then ask specifics.

6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers

Do the AIC and Proportions small transport mine and sat layers have greater than 50% of thier capacity devoted to cargo storage? I am trying to design a small transport ship with 5 mine layers and NO cargo storage. I can acheive this as a player but I cannot get the AI to design the same ship.

7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship

As far as I can tell, the damaged ship after retrofit bug seems to happen because the hardcode does not factor in repair aptitude. But I still need to test a race with 100% apptitude to make sure.

I hopes this helps. I understand your frustrations at trying to program the AI and I hope we can help each other.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Relax GLV; it is only a computer game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
--------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not think I was mis-quoted, GLV.

This is not golf, GLV, were it is good etiquette is to let players play thru, and were some may just drive away.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was a very interesting exchange I enjoyed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cybersol,
By the way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif in the Scenarios; will AI Player (1) Mine Sweepers or ships (:=True) move on to Player (3) minefields.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is all; just keep an eye on the ratio in your Sat Groups.
Your AI look fine, here GLV

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI Player (1) Scenarios

This was just a teaser for Cybersol
Sorry if I confused the topic

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You mention MODs, GLV and Cybersol is looking to create an AI for TDM.

The Small Transport designs, I made for the Abbidon in Proportions may be applicable in base se4 AI.

Cybersol, if you have time can you check.
The engines entry may need to be adjusted but the design should work for your TDM AI.

Name := Mine Layer
Design Type := Mine Layer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 290
Size Maximum Tonnage := 310
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Lay Mines
Minimum Speed := 3
Desired Speed := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Cargo Storage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 3 Name := Lay Mines
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10

===============================

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GLV, I was the first one out of the box http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 21:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I tried it, and as expected this results in a ship with 9 cargo storage and 1 mine layer components. I recommonend at least changing the "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000" to "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 0", since this will at least give you only 8 cargo storage. Then you can fit one of those supply storage components.

Now start up a game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now.

Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, you certainly are persistent. I still don't know because I don't have the time to set up this particular test. I am currently testing all the other stuff that needs testing to get a new AI working well. If you are really interested in the best possible answer, set up the test (should take less than an hour).

But if I had to hazard a guess based on what I know now. The AI would sign a treaty with player 2, but since the minefield was already marked I doubt the hardcode is able to figure out that the minefield belongs to player 2, and I just signed a treaty with player 2, so the minefield is no longer a threat (If the hardcode does recognize this then that is awesome). Let us assume it does not recognize it and ships don't move through minefields = true. All ships will avoid the marked minefield except the "mine sweeper" design type ships. These will actively seek out the marked minefield. After entering the square with the marked minefield, the first "mine sweeper" type ship will not die because the treaty is in effect and thus the minefield is not actually harmful. The fact that the ship lived must mean there is not minefield here, so the AI will clear the marked minefield. The minesweepers will start seeking out the next marked minefield, which in this case belongs to player 3.

Now if ships don't move through minefields = false, then the minesweepers behave the same, but all the other ships ignore marked minefields. For the player 2 minefield this means a scout ship or attack fleet could move through the marked minefield and survive, causing it to become unmarked. Potentialy wwitching the minesweepers to focus on the player 3 marked minefield faster. But, for the player 3 minefield, your scouts and attack fleets will move through it like it is not there, but they will die a horrible death.

[ June 13, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

If I can make it work in Proportions, it may work in se4. The Component database is similar but the Greater Cargo Capacity for the Cargo Bay in se4 is probably the problem

[ June 13, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was just looking for a yes or no answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now I have to figure out what you just typed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, I just looked at the AIC small transport hull for the AI. Yeah, that is a different beast altogether. 30% Cargo storage requirement with almost no maintence, minesweeping, and some cargo already built in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I wanted to make sure I answered your question FULLY this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 22:47: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Cybersol,

That is why my Abbidon mine layer design for Proportion may have a shot.

Do to AIC's AI programing their little in AIC designs that can "help you with your unmoded AI Designs"

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

They just keep coming! Is anyone reading anymore?

9) Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

browsing. some of it.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">JLS, why is boarding ineffective.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now I am not sure I understand.
JLS you seem to be the only one that says those ai minesweepers are ineffective. Why is this? What would you say for the trade-offs of the true versus false? What would choose True or False.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What planet types would you recommend the ai to built the Ship Training Facility?
I don’t understand, why would the “Fleet training, need some input from the experts”
Does the AI handle Fleet Training operationally different from Ship training?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The way it sounds you would still have dozens of ships over the ai Home World.

How long of a long while, is this expected to Last? 5 turns or 500 turns?


5: Could someone answer 5 please.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What does the AI do with its damaged ship. More specifically, if the ai has a ship with minor damage in the home systems warp point?)

5: Specifics. In the Vehicle file will the AI use the lines after 11?
And what of the redundant Colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc.

I don’t understand how this has been answered?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the AI disbands and reforms fleets without good reason, then any fleet training that had managed to happen by chance will be undone since the fleet was disbanded. Ship training will not be affected, though.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In my case 10 to 50 turns depending. Longer for the 50% limit problem than for the same design problem.

Update on the retrofit ship damage front:
Ok, the Last few times the AI has done a retrofit, waited a single turn, then sent the ship off. It is not related to repair ability because no repair ability could repair enough components in one turn to fix some of those ships. The ships fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, the file doesn't work the way I thinking when I asked question five. MB and some further testing cleared it up though. Here is how it works. Every turn the AI goes to the top of the queue in construction_vehilces for whatever AI state you are in presently. "Exploration" for instance. It reads entry 1, adding whatever is needed to the build queue of some world. If you still have resources and more build queue slots then it goes to entry 2. So it starts at the top and goes down every turn. Thus a redundant call, say build ten colony ships at entry 1 and again at entry 4, has no value and is just redundant. Because every turn the first entry causes it to fill the build queues to have 10 colony ships total the second entry has no effect. But a second call to build 20 colony ships at entry 4 would then add 10 more if there were build slots available after 1-3.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They say it is bad when you start talking to yourself. But here it is nonetheless. Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned in #8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the galaxy.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Still looking for novel solutions to the following AI bugs.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Problem/Bug 6)
As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has only 5 mine layer components and no cargo storage components but sull fulfills the 50% cargo requirement. Since the mine layers secondary ability is cargo storage and 5*30=150 and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
To prove this design works for a human player, do the following. Start up an unmodded game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now. You need zero cargo components to make this ship. Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Problem/Bug 7)
The AI will retrofit a ship and then leave before it finished repairing all the damaged components it just created.
Since I've have been looking in more detail, I noticed a pattern the Last few time the AI has done this. It does the retrofit, waits a single turn for any repair work, then sends the ship off for duty. The ships then fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

Problem/Bug 8)
Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply except colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize.

Problem/Bug 9)
Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?
Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned above in 8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the entire quadrant!

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutely ! AI religiously follows the build order specified in A_construction_facilities file. All you should do is to insert entry with "resupply" on every colony type that has "space yard". Regarding "resupply colony", it does not have to be only one per system. It is also specified in the same file. In fact, one my Proportion' AI build up to 5 resupply baces per system and space yards+resupply baces every time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not what I know of, but it is not a very big deal. It does not go for more than 3 turns per ship. It can be even used for AI advantage - AI does not benefit from ship training facilities - ships rarely stay over planet even for one turn. "identical retrofit" cause ships to hover over the planet with space yard. If your AI builds ship training facility there (mod construction_facilities file ! ) it can actually train ship crews http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am learning a lot about modded AI's. I looked into your Puntherraian AI and I see "Emergency Resupply" calls for resupply bases. Looking at the proportions Facility.txt in the data folder I see resupply depots have been modded to have both the "Supply Generation" and "Emergency Resupply" ability. Unfortunately the unmodded resupply depots only have the "Supply Generation" ability. It seems the "Supply Generation" call is the one that is limited to one per system. So I see how you can get it all to work in proportions, but I can also see why it doesn't work for a TDM type AI.

Thanks for the information, oleg. All around that modification to facilities is definitely a novel way around the problem.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a great point because I am building ship training facilities right now (have not decided on fleet training yet though, your thoughts?). Just to let you know though, I have had a design that changes tech rarely stay over a planet for 10 turns before the design finally changed and the retrofit was successful.

[ June 15, 2003, 08:59: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree Cybersol, MOD PACKS need and most have Parameters for new additions of an AI.

To introduce a new AI that makes 5-10 Colonizers, starting from the First turn of the game, and with the other original AI is set for 3 for example, then, that at AI will be unbalanced. Having an adverse effect on the entire Mod ,and the Human Player will have a very tough time trying to compete for Planets if as you say; "this AI introduced 10 to 20 Colonizers", at jump.

For example, the only losses expect in the AI strategic State of Explore and/or Not Connected may be:

1: Bad Warp Point, in the extreme.
2: A black Hole type System
3: An improbable AI abandonment.
4: And most important the AI Colonizer dissolving into a Colony.

Please Consider this.

Se4 Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles
AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := 15
Entry 1 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Satellite
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 5 Type := Colonizer
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Above may result, in a Burden to the Human Player or a Gas/Ice AI; if the above AI is Rock and has many Planets nearby. PPI = 30 resulting in 3 Colonizers at 4-6 Planets, 10 Colonizers when a Rock AI reachs 31 Planets
=================================================

With a Staggered Colonizer grouping, the results can be controlled for this AI, by the designer. For example: Proportions Abbidon_AI_Construction_Vehicles
Entry 1 Type := Missile Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 2 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 4 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 5 Type := Scout
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 4
Entry 6 Type := Defense Ship
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 80
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Entry 15 Type := Colonizer
Entry 15 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 15 Must Have At Least := 3

The Colonizer (entry #3 :=1), (entry #7 :=2 ) and (entry #15 :=3) does not add up to a total of 6 Colonizers to be built at any times in the explore state. And it will be rare for this AI, to build another, until there is less then 3 colonizers in the Air and that will be at (entry #15) in this way the Abbidon will not to put a burden on the Human Player at any point in the Proportions Opening Game Explore State that this Abbidon AI will participate.
=
In the Abbidon illustration, the AI will want a First line defensive Weapons Platform (entry#1), followed by two Productive Shipyards (entry#2). Then the build of ONE Colonizer (entry#3) will be issued to the (HW Ship yard) at this point as set up by myself in v1.78 se4 Proportions Mod.

With the third BSY (entry #4) and four Scouts (entry #5) following this one Colonizer (entry#3), the Colonizers first Planet to Colonize has a high probability to be in the Home System allowing for some Quick Production or a Racial Facility to boast that Home System, primarily.
If this was the Case, the Colonizer did land in the Home System then another Colonizer for an existing total of ZERO, will be Issued for the next available BSY, (v1.78 se4) to fulfill the plan of ONE at this point in the Explore State, AI Game.

Now, three Defense ships (entry #6) will be built as the four Scouts (entry #5) are exploring nearby Systems. The 3 Defense ships WILL defend the Colony Built by the First Colonizer, and will also yield and maintain a boost in Happiness for this new Colony.

By the time, the next Planet to Colonize by the AI is found from the tasks of the pre built Scouts (entry #5). The Colonizer built, either by the; On Station or Replaced, Colonizer (entry #3) or the newly introduced second Colonizer (entry # 7) the expansion process is well under way, and can be Controlled with balance for all AI race types; whether Rock, Gas or Ice by the AI designer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, please refer to Proportions; Rock type, Cue Cappa...
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Note: Reference to v1.78 se4, is that the Priorities for the AI Home World, switch to the AI Unit Build File, may have changed in v1.84 se4, changing the initial Construction sequence of that Abbidon Spring 2002, Vehicle Build File.
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I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 17, 2003, 16:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree in general you want one resupply depot per system on your normal colony types. Sometimes you may want an additional one though, say on a construction yard type planet. The ability in proportions to call for the system ability with Supply Generation and for extras by Emergency Resupply is probably the most flexible solution if you are modding the data files.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bug/Problem 3a)
Yeah the only solution I see is to use designs with rapidly changing tech so they will always be different. I have done this for now.
Bug/Problem 3b)
You could make sure the lowest tech Version of a ship and the highest tech Version of a ship class are with 50% cost of each other. But this TOO limiting in the mid-game IMHO. So I am just going to live with this one for now.

Bug/Problem 6)
I would like to use transport extra hull size in the early game. But I would like them to design the type of ship I can build as a human. For instance, a medium transport hull with 16 mine layer components and one cargo storage. If it can find enough mines it can mine a warp point almost to maximum in just 3 trips. When you still only have LC tech. They are only as fast as a battleship though.

Bug/Problem 7).
Yeah, I have repair based support ships. But those do not help colony ships, scouts, layers, etc.

Bug/Problem 8)
Thanks, really good suggestions here. I also had decided to move solar supply research forward and add significantly more supply to my larger colony ships. The supply helps a lot, I highly recommend it for bigger maps with fewer players. Your AI will easily out expand another AI that has its colony ships bogged down.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, and as your example illustrates it is critical to control and properly formulate the initial exploration and not connected construction queues. In the unmodded game, though, I recommened a lot more colony ships because the humans will be expanding rapidly as well. Most AI modders put some attention into early construction already, though.

What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.