More expensive Intelligence projects
 

In huge quadrants, late in the game, a player could feasibly produce so many intelligence points that he could not spend it all amoung his 12 intelligence projects (IP). For this reason, I have considered creaating additional IPs (with the same functions as previous IPs), but that are more expensive.

Is this a good idea to put into a mod, and am I right that IPs attack CI with as many points as they cost?

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

i remember people saying that.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Extending Intel projects is not a bad idea.

Also, it is indeed true that the more a project costs, the more CI it takes to defeat it.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

I'm not that fond of intel projects as they are now. I'm going to omit them in my next game against TDM. A planet that switches sides is just too much. I can see that happen to the occasional ship but a planet?
And take a look at the cost. Nope, can't say i like it.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fyron, I notice your, projects, in the Adamant MOD, and I say, this is the best base to work with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Minipol, you can mod out PPP. Just add a 0 to it's research req. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS, enough commas in your sentence? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I don't know about Adamant being the best base to work from... there have been some intel mods in the past that may well be more thought out than what I have done in Adamant...

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You might also want to mod up CI so that there is a defense against the higher level projects you are producing.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

CI is plenty strong as it is... just a few can make you invincible against intel from 4-5 races at once (with high intel production, ofc)...

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If he mods offensive intel up 4-5 times, then you could only do that against one empire. More than that, and you can't stop it all, even from a single empire (with high intel prodcution, ofc).

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for the suggestion. I might just do that in the next solo game.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Remember, that is add a 0, as in make it 40 instead of 4, not make it 0. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kwok, in unmodded SE4, 300k intel per turn in CI III can easily keep 4 empires with roughly the same (or even a lot more) production at bay. And that is not hard to acquire in large games (where this is even an issue). If intel projects cost 4x as much (which is more than the original proposal anyways), then 300k easily keeps out one of those empires. If you need to, you can more than likely easily double or triple your intel production (well not easily, but you can scrap those 100s of research centers you are bound to have with such a large empire). This of course assumes that you have no allies and that there are a lot of people against you.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Fair enough then.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

I am thinking there should be a big, expensive project that does nothing (or next to nothing). The goal would be to overwhelm the enemy CI with massive numbers of minor disruptions all over the empire, so that other more potent projects can succeed. I am thinking of something around 300k-500k. Do you think this would be a good idea? If so, what do you think a good cost for it would be?

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand your idea to deplete the counter intel by expensive attacking intel projects. But why do you want these projects to do nothing?? I have a planet destruction project that costs 400k for this purpose and when i finally get through the counter intel one of the enemy planets gets bLasted into asteroids.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Minipol : If I remember correctly, PPP does not cause a planet to join your empire, they rebel against their former empire and become independent.

Making the other empire's colonies fight for independence has always been standard fare in wars between colonial powers up to now. I can imagine the trend continuing into the future without too much trouble.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Ack!! There's Commies everywhere! Quick, devote all CIA manpower to keeping tabs on the Greatful Dead!"
"But sir, the Russians..."
"Forget the Russians! Someone put bacon in my soap!"

[ June 26, 2003, 17:14: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not quite. PPP has a 50% chance to succeed if it gets past CI. If it succeeds, then there is a random check to see if the planet joins your empire or forms a new empire. Either one can happen. I do not know what the chances of this are, perhaps 50/50.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because depleting large amounts of CI at once is exactly what they are meant to do. Essentially, it does whatever you want it to do, based on what the next couple of projects are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I am thinking I might have it destroy 20k resources or so, which goes along with the disruption idea.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is even more unbalancing than PPP is...

[ June 26, 2003, 19:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because depleting large amounts of CI at once is exactly what they are meant to do. Essentially, it does whatever you want it to do, based on what the next couple of projects are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I am thinking I might have it destroy 20k resources or so, which goes along with the disruption idea.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But any project which depletes a large amount of CI is by definition going to cost a lot - there's no multiplier for offensive intel the way there is for higher-level CI. So if you're going to run either a 500K project which does nothing but deplete CI or a 500K project which depletes CI and if you manage to get through the CI it also does something like, say, takes over a planet, which one would YOU run? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If you make the CI depleter cost more, there's even less reason to use it... no, wait, maybe you're right, Fyron... if you make it cost more, you can spend more points on it at once! But this will only work if the CI Depleter costs more than any other project; otherwise, you could use that project as a CI depleter and still get its benefits.

(Or, you COULD even use it as some sort of strategic measure to secretly help an ally with his intel projects without getting your ally's target mad... if you mod CI to not say who it blocked and CI Depleter to not say who used it against you when it "succeeds", the target of the CI Depleter would never know who depleted his CI, so you could deplete an ally's enemy's CI for him and the enemy wouldn't even know it was you! If that makes any sense http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

No project costs anywhere near 500k. The most expensive is Technological Espionage, which costs 150k.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

well I thought we were talking about a mod that had more expensive intel projects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Well yeah, but not that much more. Technological Espionage can't really be made better unless you want it to steal lots of tech. I had assumed it would remain untouched. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You know, there could be 2 Versions of intel disruption. The cheaper one has no message to the target, the more expensive does. The whole point is to get as much intel going against them at once. So, a more expensive project is necessarily the better one for this.

[ June 26, 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

I think your mega prodject should destroy a bunch of intel facilities, if the point is to disrupt Counter intel then it makes sense that after all the pinko witch hunting that some intell organizations would be kaput.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

I do not think you can specifically target intel facilities, but I will look into it.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name := Intelligence Disruption
Description := Operatives perform a vast multitude of minor sabotage operations
throughout the target empire, aiming to distract enemy counter-intelligence forces from the real
threats.
Group := Intelligence Disruption
Cost := 500000
Type := Points - Change
Effect Amount := -20000
Num Source Messages := 1
Source Message 1 := Our intelligence network has caused widespread chaos in the
[%TargetEmpireName] empire. [%ActualAmount] resources have been lost in chaos.
Num Target Messages := 1
Target Message Title 1 := Chaos
Target Message 1 := Widespread terrorist activities throughout the empire have
greatly distracted our field agents. In the chaos, [%ActualAmount] resources have been lost.
Source Picture := IntelSabotageByUs
Target Picture := PlanetDamaged
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Sabotage Operations
Tech Level Req 1 := 4</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ June 26, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

How about making a set of projects?

Level 1:
50k no-message
100k message

L2:
100k no-message
200k message

L3:
200k no-message
400k message

etc.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Well I did make a 300k project with no message. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But I suppose a range would be better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If he mods offensive intel up 4-5 times, then you could only do that against one empire. More than that, and you can't stop it all, even from a single empire (with high intel prodcution, ofc).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since CI 1 costs 100000, CI 2 costs 250000, and CI 3 costs 500000, I would think making CI 4 cost 1000000 and CI 5 cost 2500000 and CI 6 cost 5000000 (and setting their Effect Amount to 3, just like CI 3) would suffice. The idea is just to hold more CI points than before.

For the offensive techs, I had thought about a CI depleter attack. When first obtained, it would do nothing, but at highter tech levels, it would have some effect.

Certainly, it would be easier to mod just to keep extending this CI depleter. But a more "realistic" approach would be to extend the existing offensive intelligence attacks by increasing their costs (to simulate better-trained operatives) and in some cases, increasing the potency of their effects.

Of course, these higher-tech attacks would eventually obsolete the first few CI depleter projects.

So I ask, which system is better? Leave all the default offensive techs un-extended, but add and extend this CI depleter, or to extend both the CI depleter and the default attacks as the tech level increases?

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

That will make CI even more over-whelming than it is now. 12 full CI III are nearly impossible to breach. CI IV or V would be impossible.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would CI IV and up still be impossible to breach if higher-tech offensive attacks and CI depleters were more expensive? Would they be impossible if both attacker and defender had access to 17 additional levels of Intelligence Centers (raising Intelligence Point generation by 100 points each)?

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

If you made offensive projects cost something like 10x as much, then they might have a chance of breaching it.

Making intel centers more productive actually makes CI more powerful because each additional point gives the defender 4 or 5 points of CI, but the attacker only gets 1 point of offensive.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">12 full CI 3 should be near-impossible to breach. If you want to spend that many points on defense and forgo any intel attacks, you deserve a little peace of mind.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suspect the depleters won't make much difference in most games, since the increase in cost only comes into play when you are generating insane amounts of intel. Otherwise it is usually sufficient to bleed with PPP or Tech-Stealing. However, having higher levels of CI available helps the defender a lot more than having high-costed attacks.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Possibly, if the CI levels stop increasing before the IntelCenters stop. If you can only go up to CI5, a defensive intel player might stop there, where as an attacking intel player might research higher up the tree and therefore generate more points with higher level Intel Centers.

But all else being equal, generating more points only benefits the defender, since his points are multiplied by the CI project.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Is it the "Effect Amount" listed in the IntelProjects.txt file for the CI projects that determines how much of a bonus to defensive points you get?

If so, suppose I gave CI 1 and CI 2 an Effect Amount of 1, gave CI 3, CI 4, and CI 5 an Effect Amount of 2, and gave CI 6 through CI 10 an Effect Amount of 3. Perhaps by extending the Effect Amount like this (or leaving it at 1 for all CI for that matter), CI can be increased in value (how much it stores) without becoming "ultimate" in defense. Would this be desirable to players (given offensive techs were extended/made more expensive)? I understand giving the defender more than a 3x point bonus to CI is way too much.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are right.
IMO counter-intel is far too effective in standard SE IV and I reduced the effect amount for all CI projects to 1. Don't forget in the settings.txt file "Intelligence Defense Modifier Percent", which I reduced to 50. I don't like too much to discuss about "realistic" in a game like SE IV, but isn't it much more difficult to block sabotage than to create one? I believe we all learned in the Last two years that this is indeed so.
Anyway with the modification above intel becomes quite an interesting option to attack an enemy.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What affect do both of these have? If "Intelligence Defense Modifier Percent" := 120 and "Effect Amount" := 2, then does this CI project get 240% of stored points to spend on defense?

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct.

Re: More expensive Intelligence projects
 

Thanks Q.