The perfect PBW game?
 

Ok, I know this is subjective and pretty much everybody is going to have their own impresion of what the perfect game is. But I have some ideas.

1. The turns must be done quickly.
Any longer then 24 hour turns and I really have trouble staying interested in what is going on.

2. There should be a lot of players.
While I like the 1 on 1 of Koth, it's just so cutthroat. As soon as you meet you are at war and the war usually doesn't Last long.

The big problem is that number 2 contradicts number one. As a rule the more players you have the longer between turns. So here's what I am thinking.

3 players and a dozen high bonus TDM AI on a medium-large map.
3 good starting planets.
Human players cannot ally with each other, and cannot trade/gift anything with each other. Resources, ships, planets, tech. Nothing.
Humans can ally with AI and can do any trades/gifts they can get the AI to do.
High unit limit/low ship limit.
Victory is Last human player standing, even if he is behind ai players in the standings.

Using TDM and giving the AI high bonus should counter the problem with them being to easy.
I know interacting with the AI isn't that fun, but how often do you really relate to EVERY player in the game on a regular basis. Don't you normally have a couple of allies/enemies you talk to a lot and pretty much ignore everyone else?
Not allowing the players to ally and trade will help alleviate the problem with most 3 player games. That is, two ganging up on one. It also alleviates the main problem with Human/AI games. That is, the tendency for the humans to gang up and eliminate the AI first.
I like a low ship limit. I think it makes the end game more interesting. It makes it harder to keep a handle on your entire empire, and this way if you lose a big fleet and you still have a sizeable empire you have a chance of rebuilding and remaining competative.

So, whatcha think?

Geoschmo

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

I dont like the idea, I too like as many players as possible and best 24h turns. But 3 players are just to few in my oppinion. This game would be more handling the AI than handling other humans. Why a low ship limit?
I like the AI as spice in a PBW game, not more.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Well, I explained why I like a low ship limit in my original post.

As far as playing with so many ai, I understand your point, but lot's of players and 24 hour turns is frankly impossible to achieve, unless you leave on auto turns. And then you end up playing the Ai anyway when the players miss their turns. What's the difference if you are playing against an AI running a humans turn because he missed the time limit, and playing an AI outright? Actually there is a big difference, since the AI controlling the human empire doesn't get the bonus, it's actually more inept then the regular AI player.

Ai as "spice" is difficult to acchieve in practice. You either have to make them some kind of uber race, and the players gang up on them, or they end up being free bonus planets for the human players lucky enough to start close to them. Many AI in a game is ok beacuse everyone has equal access to them, but few AI in a game can be wildly unbalancing.

Of course, as I said this is all just an opinion of mine.

Geoschmo

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

I agree, but I think the problem is you have the choice between faster turns and more human players.. I like more human players better and still like the game even if the turns come in in 30h-50h. Sure I dont like it but for me its better than play a singelplayer game (where I get my turns in seconds).

I think many AIs are fine, just like you but then they are the spice for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The AIs should be just a barrier for humans not real opponents. At least in my view.

Sorry I overread the low ship limit part, sorry.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Funny you wrote that Geo, I opened a few days ago a game for me and 2 friends with no trades/alliances etc..etc... But we left the units and ship limits to high level. Anyway the settings seem very similar.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In our game the AI are just hindrance, while with a *5 bonus, they can be deadly, especially with patch 1.84. So I disagree with this setting, the main goal should be survive other human players, not survive the AI.

Last with this setting, the game is a direct onslaught. Few roleplay, much fighting.

It's a style.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Perhaps we need to reinstate the old practice of challenging the opposition. 2 or 4 or even 6 players can do <24-hour turns. If all of the players agree at the start, the game could run quite fast for the early turns. We used to set these games up at the old Borg Forum; perhaps someone could set up some sort of a challenge site {Hint Hint}. I know where some free server space can be had http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Maybe I'll just see if I can interest my next Koth opponent in this. Would make killing each other pretty interesting if we had to go through AI players to do it I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

What about imposing parts of the Gryphin Convention such as:
No Weapons of Mass Destruction
No Deliherate Glassing of Planets
No Treaties
No Trades
No Mines
No Intel
Slyky, what do you think of the limits?

No Shoes, No Shirts, No Problem, (sorry, wrong thread)

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

No mines or intel? Not sure about those personally, but I can see whay some would like that.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What would I say about it? What I've said in the Crystal Gail thread...ouch, ouch, OUCH! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Offhand, I'd say that would be a bad idea. There is already an element of luck that skews games as is (systems, nebulas, breathables, etc.) without introducing another possible luck factor: ("Well, that sucked, the AI was right beside me but the AI in your area was 3 systems away") or, ("My AI attacked me right away while yours waited 10 turns to declare war"!). Etc.

Again, just an offhand thought.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

You could use only one the sam AI for all of the AI players.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Or turn on Team Mode..

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But there is still a matter of proximity and inter-reaction. After all, I think it's a dice roll, for example, for them to declare war on you and attack. Of course, the madder they get at you, the more likely that will happen, but imagine one KOTH player meeting the AI and it attacks next turn and the other KOTH player gets lucky for 5 or more turns?

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

geo very subjective.

i personally like 36 hours
proven players or brand new players ( a mix of that )
6 or more

Small map : 1 to 3 planet start
med map 3 to 10 planet start
large 10 planet start

The ability to adjust the turn limit by 12 to 24 hours when needed ( once in a while )

Max 2 player alliance victory or Last man standing

Role Playing

I do not like the end game ... Just the middle of a game... That is when it is fun.

And no talisman. As they ruin the game.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

We had the same issue when I played large, long-term, multi-player wargames:
More players = better games
More players = slower games
Slower games = loss of interest

The trick to keeping them moving at a fast pace and interesting was to allow your teammates to take your turn(s) if you were not available.

So, I would suggest a multilateral max player PBW game with predetermined teams. Set up the game and passwords so that you can perform a teammate’s turn, as needed. Let the teams work out their own arrangements on who is playing which empire when.

24 hour turns/full auto and the No AI mod would be fine for this set up. I would be willing to try this if anyone is interested.

What do you think?

Gecko

[ June 26, 2003, 21:10: Message edited by: geckomlis ]

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am playing in a PBW game like this called "The Good, Bad, Ugly, and Dead." It is a 2-on-2 partner game with 10 TDM races high bonus, on team mode. Some of them started with sphereworlds/ringworlds. Pretty fun... 2 of the humans got beat up pretty bad by the AI.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Geo, I think you've already created the perfect PBW game: 20 Players - 24 Hours. It goes fast enough to keep everyone interested, and the diplomacy has been great. I also like the small galaxy; it was interesting from the first turn.

PS I should give kudos to Imperator Fyron, too, because Adamant 005 (small galaxy, lots of players) was a lot of fun as well.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Chronon. I have enjoyed it too. Although I think maybe it was a few too many players and a little small of a quadrant. But it has been interesting.

The biggest problem with it though is there are just so many missed turns. I don't think we've had ten in the entire game theat everyone got their turn in before the time limit. Although usually people dont' miss two in a row. SO I guess it's nto that bad.

Geoschmo

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

Perhaps you could have 7 players on a small map, so each one gets three systems at the beginning (3 starting planets). Then set the time limit to 36 hours. I'll bet that would move pretty quickly, and there would be some good diplomacy as well.

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

I think it's a very subjective question. There are some players, for instance who can't always play a turn within 36 hours. There are others who don't lose interest if the turn pace is quite long, either.

Also, some players want to replay a turn (making everyone else replay the whole turn) if they notice something that doesn't seem right to them, such as they send in the wrong turn file, or an accident or bug occurs. Other players really hate re-doing a turn they spent an hour or more entering orders for, and would rather play through.

I would recommend though that people try games with smaller quadrants. It may seem like "bigger is better", but smaller makes for more interaction between all the players, and gives more tension and decisions to use some of the earlier techs rather than sitting around researching the end of the tech tree before getting around to fighting.

PvK

Re: The perfect PBW game?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's one thing I've always wondered about SE4 - if you ask to replay a turn, why do I have to re-enter my orders - if we're running the same turn again, why won't it accept the orders I put in the first time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif