Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

What is the best way to protect valuable unarmed ships, like stellar manipulators? I've got warp weapons III, and am thinking that perhaps the best design would be one with, say, 8 point defense cannons, armor, and as amny wormhole III cannons as I have multi-tracking tech. I'm also considering warships with APB VIII's (for range 7) and one or two wormhole III's (also range 7), so they bLast the enemy then teleport him away before he gets in range. Problem is, this could send enemy ships right over into my unarmed stellar manip ship! Is there some way to keep them within the protection of my warships, without having them bLast into battle? I thought about maybe setting them to avoid getting hurt as primary plan, and max range as secondary, but will this work? Also, does putting the wormhole beams on the stellar manip ship mean it is easier to target? What can the enemy do to target my stellar manip ships if I don't put any guns on?
Obviously, I'm just starting the thought process here, so any advice would be much appreciated! I'd hate to lose those valuable ships! Any advice for protection of cheaper ships, like supply/repair/mine sweepers, that I don't want to lose?

Thanks!
Joe

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

Well you could make manipulator ships in base ship hull n give it plenty repulsor beams.

Of coss it only works on ships smaller than baseship. Witch is all of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Well, as far as i know anyway.

-edit-
Typos, how unusual for me.

[ July 01, 2003, 07:03: Message edited by: Me Loonn ]

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

How about using a small fleet with a few of your toughest hombres to escort? Make sure the fleet is fast, with minesweepers and cloak detection. When you see the baddies, you can scram; maybe even give them all an Emergency Propulsion Pod for a quick getaway. If you have to fight it out, maybe you can survive. Since you have invested the $$$ for the SM ship and are paying big bucks for maintenance, I think you should protect your investment. Also, keep the Counter Intelligence up. Nothing is worse than spending the time and resources to build an expensive SM ship only to have it stolen with a Crew Insurrection.

Slick.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

I personally just load them up with Armor, Sheilds and defenses and keep it joined with a large fleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

I'll definately defend it (and spend heavily on Intel -- thanks, Slick!). What is unclear to me is:

(1) How can I ensure that the enemy won't go past my warships and kill it?

(2) How can I ensure that it will fire it's wormhole weapons should enemies come near?

The tactics has primary orders and secondary orders. It would seem logical to use "don't get hurt" as primary orders (to cause it to move away from enemy fleets) and "max range" as secondary ordrs (to get it to fire on ships that do wind up near it (e.g., those that get beamed away after being pummeled). But, will this work?

By the way, wormhole beams don't require that you be in a heavier ship than your opponent do they? I know repulsor beams do. How about tractor beams?
Thanks!
Joe

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is not a real answer but there have been numerous discussions on setting up proper ship & fleet strategies. Read those, and experiment a little. Use the simulator. I am no expert, but here are a few tips that I would use in creating a SM protection fleet:

- Keep your SM fleet behind your front lines for defensive SM like planet building, etc.

- If the SM ship is offensive (planet destroyer, sun destroyer, etc.) put it in a large fleet. Note that sun destoryers will destroy all planets and ships in the system, even yours, so set up your plans accordingly and remove the ship from the fleet when appropriate.

- I personally like using a Battleship hull for SM ships because I can use all the extra room for weapons or defensive systems. Usually the extra cost for the larger hull and components is small compared to the SM component, so build cost and time is not much longer.

- If you are worried that your SM ship will break for the corner while the escorts will engage the enemy and possibly some enemy ships will get through, you need to do some risk analysis. If you give your SM ship an offensive weapon and set it's strategy properly, it will attack, but probably stay with the rest of your ships. This will allow mutual protection. If all your ships have the same speed, that's good too because you can break formation and they stay together. Alternatevly, you can stay in formation with your SM ship as the leader and use a formation that protects the leader. There is no canned answer here because if I was after your SM ship and faced any of the options above, I would work on a counter tactic. You would then have to change your defense or lose that ship on the next combat. That's what is great about this game.

Slick.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

"Advice on protecting unarmed ships?"

Simple, arm them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shoot the enemy before they shoot you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you set the strategy to Do Not Get Hurt, this will thwart strategies that target Nearest first. Unless they blow up all your warships, in which case you were doomed anyway.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you set the strategy to Max Range, and Target Priority to Nearest, you will shoot at anyone who comes near. However, you now put your ship at risk by telling it to engage in combat. If you have a significant defensive fleet with your ship, I'd set it to Do Not Get Hurt. Otherwise, I'd use Max Range.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You would think that would work, but, I think what would happen is your ship would always choose "Don't Get Hurt" since that is always a valid choice.

Also, make sure you set all your strategies to Break Formation so you don't have to follow what is set for your Fleet Strategies.

Finally, be sure to keep it cloaked. Sometimes wandering deathfleets don't have cloak detection.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

You can combine "don't get hurt" with "target nearest".

Unfortunately, I think "don't get hurt" always means "break formation," and is always done by all unarmed ships anyway. If they have at least one weapon then you can put them in a fleet with escorts, and asign them a leader position in a formation that puts escorts in good position to stop assailants. The problem is then this formation will try to fight, rather than hiding out. However you can design escort ships with weapons and "don't get hurt" movement strategy, and hope they go to the same corners as the ships you want to protect.

Wormhole beams don't care what the target size is.

PvK

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

If I have two fleets at the same location and they are attacked, will they fight together? If so, I could have a couple of escorts protect my valuable stellar manip ship (and NOT break formation so they stay with him) while another fleet is free to break formation and go on the offensive. Will this work?
And, if I have two fleets, one with mine sweepers, is there any way to make sure that the one with the sweepers sweeps, so the other isn't lost to mines?
Thanks!
Joe

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes. In sequential, send in the sweeping fleet first. In simultaineus, you need to make certain they arrive on the same 'day'.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

FYI, I ran some tests and it appears that if the sweepers arrive earlier in the turn than other fleets, the mines are swept and the fleets that follow that turn do not encounter them. This seemed to work if sweepers and other fleet start at the same location and sweepers are faster. It also seemed to work if the sweepers were equally fast, but started nearer the mine field. When the sweepers were equal in speed and equally distant, they did not sweep and the other fleet was damaged, at least on the few trials I tested.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

Try shift-clicking the two fleets before you order them to move into the field.

The ships will move as if they were in one single fleet for one turn.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just to be clear, are you saying that if I shift-click 2 ships (or fleets) and move/attack, they will move as a fleet for the first turn even if they have different speeds? i.e. if 1 ship has a movement of 10 while the other has a movement of 7, will the first ship "slow down" and move with the second, and only move 7 for that turn? I thought that shift-clicking was only a faster means of giving out the same order to multiple ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Slick.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

I have played a few games where I was up against unarmed ships, usually mine sweepers. First thing I do is to make unarmed ships a priority target; that will often kill the mine-sweepers even when you loose the battle. This has a slowing effect on the opposing fleet, as they need to replace the mine-sweepers or risk running afoul of mine fields. Adding a single weapon will defeat this tactic. It looks like this is a mistake that lots of new players make.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ooooo. Sneaky. This might work agains me. *scribbles it down*. Would even work on my spaceyard, repair and supply ships. *pouts* I will have to keep this in mind at PBW. I will paraphrase this for the FAQ. Thanks!

Slick.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm...Something NEW to remember!

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you may have been lucky, and it is based on fleet age or something else random, unless it has been fixed in a patch at some point. In the past however, I have seen minesweepers not manage to sweep a field simply because there weren't enough in a single fleet, even though they were the same speed and given the same movement orders, and no goofy pathfinding made their course split.

For example, one fleet can sweep 60 mines, the other can sweep 40. They move together, but they run into a field of 80 mines, and get obliterated.

It'd be great if it has been fixed, but I didn't know that it had been... and recently I thought I saw someone else lose a ship to mines when it looked to me like they had ample minesweepers (but that might've been a valid timing thing, I suppose).

PvK

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just to be clear, are you saying that if I shift-click 2 ships (or fleets) and move/attack, they will move as a fleet for the first turn even if they have different speeds? i.e. if 1 ship has a movement of 10 while the other has a movement of 7, will the first ship "slow down" and move with the second, and only move 7 for that turn? I thought that shift-clicking was only a faster means of giving out the same order to multiple ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Slick.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shift-clicking makes a virtual super-fleet for one turn. They'll slow down to let the slower guys keep up and everything.

Re: Advice on protecting unarmed ships
 

I am fairly sure I with 1.84 that I had two fleets arrive at a location the same day and the one without mine sweapers arrived first and was toasted. I believe the fleets moving on the same day move in the order they were created. Renaming the fleet will not make it newer and creating a new one will cost you your training bonus, if any.

I usually avoid trying to coordinate attacks with two fleets, as many things can go wrong (such as a rogue enemy ship can bLast one ships engines before it dies, putting your fleet's movement cycle out of synch with the other fleet).

I usually make all my ships armed, even ones that break formation with Don't get hurt, just so they cannot be targeted as Unarmed.

Meson Cannon I is nice cheap, 20KT weapon to turn support ships into armed support ships.

If you are going for armed support ships, I would recommend that you consider 'weakest' to pick them off.

I am not sure if PDCs make a ship classified as armed. With only PDC a ship will be treated as unarmed with respect to breaking formation and running to the corner.