defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

I play against the AI in TDM. I've traditionally followed a strategy of expanding as quickly as possible and then trying to defend the warp points along my "borders" as well as the planets in the border systems.

This usually works OK for a while until the end part of the mid-game where the enemy AIs have got some good ship strength up and are wearing down my defences. Often I end up walking a very fine line between having the enemy pour through my defences and successfully fending them off long enough to seal everything off so that I can't be touched, even in the end-game.

But that's "usually." My border planets are typically well defended but everything on the interior is almost completely undefended. So if the AI gets past my first ring of defence, it's curtains for me. So I was thinking I should perhaps play it more "realistically"--that is, have light defences on the border with defence getting increasingly stiffer as one reaches my home system. At least that way, a breach at my border doesn't mean near-certain defeat. But on the other hand I feel like I'll constantly be losing planets on my border and really hurting my empire.

Which approach do you take?

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

My best border defense is an advancing fleet. Just because you're not playing the Hare doesn't mean you hold still. Just because you're playing the Tortoise doesn't mean you can't push.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

I usually try to open a few WPs deep into enemy territory, send in ships, then close them off. Divide and conquer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Doesn't distract the AI as much because it is too stupid, but it works well against humans.

Generally, taking the fight to enemy territory is more effective. If planets must be lost, make them enemy planets instead of your own.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

Against the AI, heavily defending the frontier is the best defense against an incoming fleet. A human would attack anywhere just to trip you up. Something to defend the interior is always a good idea. In just about every sci fi picture, the planets on the boarder are always screwed ... and that just doesn't seem right to me. You want these colonies - or you wouldn't have sent colonizers there.

I almost never use bases, either at warp points or in planet orbit. I build'em occasionally but they aren't often useful. A small mobile fleet to attack enemy ships that break the line are best. Have at least a sensor level 1, the AI will always cloak once it gets stealth armor.

But you gotta send an expeditionary fleet into enemy territory to snipe at colonies. No matter how well you defend.

[ July 08, 2003, 20:57: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

I usually gather a group of ships and they go on a suicide mission. My borders arent super strong, but what I do is i go on an incursion usually hitting enemy planets and destroying them. I dont stop to invade, just slaughter their economy so they would not be able to support a military

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, my issue with border defence is that, given the sheer size of the borders (I always play huge galaxies), it's not too difficult for the AI to pick a spot, mass forces and break through. And if one of you defence fleets happens not to be close by, you can be screwed as the AI can wipe out several sectors just in the time it takes you to get there.

So this is why I wonder if I should try a different strategy of heavily defending my core worlds, which would be a logistically much easier task for a variety of reasons including travel time and population growth and transport.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a good idea. But those ships are expensive. Even a decent light cruiser is going to take 3 turns to build at a space yard III facility. Then you've got to marshall them, get minesweepers, supply ships ... yikes, even a suicide mission thus turns into a major operation and losing all those ships at the end of it seems like a poor pay-off.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

I have sent 120 BB fleets on suicide missions through WPs opened into the enemy's core systems before. Nothing wrong with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

--The AI never really figures out mines.

--Look to colonize areas of the map with logical chokepoints, and work to garrison each point. Resist colonizing what you can't defend.

--You cannot defend everything.

--Always stay on the offensive in some way. Give your foe something to worry about. Wage war at the economic level.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

Natural chokepoints are the obvious choice--the problem is in quadrants such as grid which have few if any systems with fewer than 3 warp points. IMO, border defense in these situations becomes an economic issue--if you can outproduce the other guy, you can support fleets to defend larger borders. Larger borders, in turn, mean greater economic strength, which means larger fleets, which mean larger borders, etc... It feeds off itself, usually with diminishing returns as your borders grow geometrically.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

Large satellite stacks on warps, concentrated around the choke-points first, then all warp points within my space. Rotate older satellites out to the borders, and have newer designs produced both on borders and deep inside.

Big fighter stacks (usually 100), and several carriers dedicated solely to ferrying fighters from one system to the next. A few of these are usually enough (with satellites) to repel any AI attack.

Small fleets (no more than 15 ships) attacking targets of opportunity wherever possible. I've taken to putting a cargo container on ships and keeping some troops in them, and setting secondary strategy to capture planet.

Larger fleets always available to go into an enemy system, seal off with fighters and satellites, and proceed to destroy all enemy units and capture all planets.

Several BSY's in the core always producing ships, mothballing when they're completed. Just lost some ships? Unmothball the older designs and send them off as replacements.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That doesn't apply when fighting against TDM AI. Why? every ship is a minesweeper.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

So whats the point in having minesweepers?
Never played the TDM ...

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Having a specialized ship is more effective and efficient rather than having a fleet of mediocre minesweeping/attack ships.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That doesn't apply when fighting against TDM AI. Why? every ship is a minesweeper.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think it's true for all the races...
Most of the best races have attack ships without minesweepers, but include an offensive ship design that works as sweeper.
The advantage, is that the AI include these designs into the fleets... then, the AI will have fleets with minesweeper capabilities.
Using the AI these kind of designs, after some point the mines became less effective against the AI (only with 2 of those ships, could clean a minefield with 100 mines).

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

True, I admit the TDM does better, as you say.

But when you start breaking the AI down, I found that I can constantly replenish minefields, and they will constantly bash ships against them for losses.

In this way, you can whittle them down constantly. Now, in certain areas where the AI comes with decent fleets, the mines will be swept. But that is no reason not to fill 'em right up again after you take care of that fleet. There is no guarantee the next fleet (or ship) will have minesweepers. The AI does not think like a human in this manner.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For sure you're right!!
But if the AI have game bonus (specially with high), think the AI can compensate their lack of mind and go over the human player's planets just using the "force brute".
At least in my games with small galaxies and high AI bonus, after the 40 first turns the mines over the warp points and/or planets, doesn't helped me so much to stop them.
Like with the humans, the mines works great in the early game... but think late in the game are less effective against good AIs.

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

Here are some thoughts i can offer:
First and most importantly - as someone (Sun Tzu?) said, best defense is offense. Your systems will be well defended if nothing is coming on them.
Now i know it is difficult to mount a sizeable assault fleet againt bonused AI's and it is extremly difficult to overrun it with earlier attacks but a planet here and planet there is still a loss - of the colony, its production, colony ship and ~0.2 years of construction, plus time for movement. For that my favorite is a destroyer/lc armed solely with PN, rad bomb and a plague bomb. Nasty little thing, leaves a colony completely useless. put ECM, stealth and scattering armor on it, plug in some ressuply storages and/or solar panels and add in a solar sail.

Now for passive defenses, for one - have you tried using the crippling weapons? a single hit from a shield distruptor (say, massive mounted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) can realy leave a ship helpless. Same with a well-shot ID or even tachyon projector.
Then if your the defender you need to work for bigger numbers - torpedoes, WMG, NSP, even GH or some heavy racial weapons. It does not matter how large the reload time if you wont need to reload. Remember, you get the first shot and you start up close - so its a likely hit, and weapons like GH or WMG can be nasty in WP defense.
Something to consider is constructing a BSY on top of the WP and making it build sats, and set it to "launch sats, repeat order". Make it well-shielded and here you go. Or better, build three of these. You get the point.

Overall being stuck on the defense is a dead end - because while your not, the enemy continues to develop and expand, and unless it is finite resources even superior fleets that you put there will be overrun by the sheer numbers that a medium/high bonused AI can produce.

My 2 cents http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: defending your empire\'s borders: what do you do?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For sure you're right!!
But if the AI have game bonus (specially with high), think the AI can compensate their lack of mind and go over the human player's planets just using the "force brute".
At least in my games with small galaxies and high AI bonus, after the 40 first turns the mines over the warp points and/or planets, doesn't helped me so much to stop them.
Like with the humans, the mines works great in the early game... but think late in the game are less effective against good AIs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well said. If there is anyone that has experience with AI behavior... it is certainly you, M_B! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif