|
OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Baron Grazic: Thought I'd make a new thread to avoid annoying people.
Maybe the language that I originally used was too harsh, but these are some of the facts that I'm certain of: 1) The Solomon Islands Parliament is being pressed by the Australian Government to ratify a bill drafted in Canberra that would effectively give Australian troops and police "license to kill" authorizations (i.e. there will be no legal recriminations for any Solomon Islanders killed by OZ personnel.) 2) There will be changes to the laws of the Solomon Islands to allow Australians and New Zealanders to hold government Posts. Effective day-to-day control of government and the country's finances will pass to Australia while the entire bureacracy and system of government is rejigged from the ground up. 3) The intervention force will include such support staff as legal prosecutors and judges so that criminals can be prosecuted and sentenced immediately without waiting for the Solomon Islands judiciary to be rebuilt. 4) There will supposedly be a big military operation on Guadalcanal Island to flush out and capture Harold Keke and his followers. P.S. The S.I. Parliament held off passing the said bill earlier by not convening, but I just heard on the radio this afternoon that the debate officially started today with an address by the Prime Minister in favor of intervention. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
The man on the ground always knows more than the supports in the stands.
If your facts are acurate (and I'm not saying they aren't) than the Oz govt needs to chill a bit... What I have heard is the civil unrest in the Solomans, and that the Oz government wants to "ensure peace in the region", because the SI would "become a haven for money laundering, drug trafficking and a terrorist hide-out". Of course, I'm just stating what I have read in the newspapers. What have you seen and what are the thoughts of the people in the Solomans? |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
With all the chaos in the world, it is sad that everyday it seems to just escalate, as a spieces as a race, I fear the worst.
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
I think the world needs something like contact with an alien race, to get us all to co-operate, and even then, I'm not sure it would work... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
sudden shock can only do so much. you want the world to recover? then hold doors open for people, smile, say 'please', 'thank you' and 'good morning'. don't encourage movie-makers to make movies with excessive sex and violence and espeicailly ones that glorify it. if someone asks for help, give it. do your best to understand the other persons position. respect just laws and the people that enforce them.
no, getting a gun and shooting bad guys will not solve all our problems. not even hard work can garentee that. but that's no excuse not to do the hard work. there. a short bit of my view on how to save the world. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
What is 'Oz'? Why O-Z? What is the background of this conflict in S.I.? What has been happening down there for the Last few years? |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Loser, I agree with you about sex. Repressing it only makes it go underground where it may surface in other ways.
In a broader light...the problems may be a result of our not being willing to consider the brotherhood of man. If we think a person or a group of people as "other", then it is a short step to the use of force. About Oz...I was confused about it too some years ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Oz = Aus (Australia). |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
[ July 09, 2003, 15:03: Message edited by: sachmo ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
Once something like that happens in your country, the matter becomes a lot more complicated. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
Once something like that happens in your country, the matter becomes a lot more complicated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, now that gives you right to do whatever you like. You are always the GOOD guys, sure. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Whoa there limey, he kind of implied that he lost family there. And he didn't say it was right, just that it's more complicated than it may have been presented.
At least throw something in there so a reader can tell just how sarcastic or light your text might be. There's little tone or signal, after all. [edit: the actions of our government tend to occasionally frighten us too, in fact I'll bet Plisken there has a few complaints himself, but it's ... complicated] [ July 09, 2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Loser ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
[quote]Originally posted by oleg:
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
Quote:
He has every right to feel that way, especially in a country that may or may not have been touched by terrorism, as of yet. Once again, he didn't say what country he was from, so I'm just guessing here. In my response, I was attempting to express my personal opinion about said actions, and how I feel now as opposed to before 9/11. Before the attacks, I would have had a major problem with the way this "war" is being conducted. I'm not a fan of governments strong arming one another to get their way, rattling a sabre at those who disagree with our policies. I am also a supporter of basic human rights, and humane treatment of prisoners, no matter what the crime. But when I saw all of those people die in those towers, it sort of changed my outlook on things. Now I sort of turn a blind eye to some of the things that I would have been indignant about before. It's a strange thing how life can change you. I'm not happy about it, or proud, but when I consider the alternative, my resolve hardens. Do I think we are the "good guys"? Absolutely not. Do I have compassion for innocents who are killed in this conflict? Of course. But I have a hard time believing that terrorism isn't a threat to my safety and the safety of my family, and so I will stand by while my government, and other governments around the world, prosecute this ugly, disgusting war the best way that they know how. If it's a choice between my family or someone else, there is no choice. Maybe that makes me a bad person...I don't know. But I would kill to protect my family, and by the same token I will support anyone who works to protect my family. If someone were to present a better solution, where no one would be killed, or no one would be cajoled, threatened or put upon to do things that they don't want to do, then I would take that route in a heart beat. In the meantime, I'll stand aside and let someone else keep me safe at night. What else can I do? [ July 09, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: sachmo ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
i put the commoness of sex as one of the major causes of relationship breakups, divorces and general unsatisfication with marraige. as well as unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted deseases and people who will do anything to get into someone's pants. all of which is reduced or eliminated if there's no sex outside marriage. oh, yeah, there's no good reason not to get marriad relitivily young. but statistics say aviod the spring, get married in the fall. people are more sensible then.
it's a simple principle. if you take something special and make it common, then it's no longer special. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
The fact is that there were plenty of divorces, unwanted pregnancies, STDs, and unscrupulous rakes back in more austere periods of history. It simply wasn't talked about back then. I know this for a fact because it happened quite a bit in my families history and, thinking this must be some terribly uncommon trend, I eventually looked deeper into the issue. The problems were just covered up better back then. A good percentage of Charm Schools and Boarding Schools were actually Schools for Wayward Girls (institutions for hiding pregnancy). Lack of birth control just meant that most 'loose women' were professionals, and the natural increase in prostitution adds to organized crime, it does not add to general virtue. There will be sex, always. If you make marriage such a binding thing you will only make sex out of marriage more common, as a couple will get married to have sex ("because they love each other") then look elsewhere for satisfaction when their juvenile relationship skills make them miserable in each other's company. You cannot eliminate sex outside of marriage. It has never been done (though I have heard the native people of Tasmania were free of adultery, I do not know this to be a fact, and look what happened to them). Before we talk this particular discussion any further (in a separate thread) I'd have to do the ageist thing and ask both how old you are and how many years you spent as a parent-freed adult before you got in a cohabitated relationship. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Yes, I was a bit sarcastic. I did cry watching the horror of sept.11. I will give anything to bring the responsible to justice. But I'm petrified by actions of US goverment. Saddam was a brutal and despicable dictater. BUT he had nothing to do with Al-Queda. Nor were the misguided British muslims who came to Afganistan to defend their religion. Now they face the court-martial without any hope of fair trail.
You want justice ? Bring up Osama before the court. Where is he ? Why did we invade Irag instead ?? |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
I am afraid to say, but I think the bombings in Bali effected the Australian people more than the 9/11 event. The reason being, the 9/11 event was reported via TV and seemed remote, while the Bali bombings happened at a time when many Australian's where there, including many of our Star Footballers (Australian Rules Football). I think this was a reason for our solid support of the US in Iraq. both terrorist events forming a bonding between our 2 nations. It could also explain why the Australian Government wants to send troops to the Solomons, to ensure peace in our reason. Australia doesn't have an official short name, other than AUST, so we just say OZ. Tbontob was completely correct - OZ = Aus I'm sure that their is a reference to the Wizard of OZ too? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I was watching a UK quiz show Last night and 8 out of 10 people, didn't know who the Priminister of Australia was... I'm interested, in how many of you guys (and the few ladies) know??? Deccan might have to answer about the situations in the Solomon Islands. What I have 'heard' is Harold Keke, a local 'Warlord' and his supports have reportedly killed 50-200 people, destroyed villages, kidnapped people, and made between 1000-2000 people homeless. The remoteness of where is seems to be operating from leaves a lot of room for mis-information and/or exaggeration, and makes it hard to confirm details. Perhaps Deccan can say what the local information is on the topic... |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
When a Nation, any nation, is unable to control the actions of the people that live there to the
point that it adversely affects their neighbors, then they should expect said neighbors to intervene. From the research that I have done, it would appear that the situation in the Solomon’s is such that the government can not regain control with out the help of outsiders. The government is also over the Last decade, been unwilling to make needed reforms. When a government looses both the support of the majority of the people and the ability to control them, then the government has lost its mandate to rule. This is a prime example of why foreign intervention happens. If the people support Keke, then they should rise up and seize their birthright and replace the government. If they don’t support Keke, then they should seek him and his out and destroy this threat to their homeland. If they allow the AU’s in under these terms, they will soon be second class people in their own country. Personally, I think the truth lies in the deep sea geology of the region. The people of the Solomon’s should be bombarding the UN with requests for military aid that originates from countries more neutral to the long term outcome. If these people don’t take a proactive stance and force this issue to the front page of western news outlets, they will not get the help that they deserve. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
I thought their might have been another Tasmania in the US, or somewhere else.
I've heard of stories along these lines, but I'm staggered by those figures... Some of the claims, I would want to see their evidence before giving them another thought, but then again, I could be biased. Some of my distant relatives were sent to Tassie as convicts... But this is a different topic again from the Solomons... [ July 10, 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: Baron Grazic ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Warning: Long post.
Warning: Serious discussion. Whoa, I didn't mean this to be another "heated debate" on the Iraq situation. Anyway, here's a lowdown on the Solomon Islands (S.I.) since Loser asked. Some disclaimers: I've only been in the country since early 2000, so I'm not a native. I also don't go out much (hey, I'm an SEIV-playing nerd after all, otherwise I wouldn't be posting on this board), and I've only left the capital city Honiara once to visit the provinces in all my years here (sad, huh?). I'm no historian too, so I may get some facts wrong. Also, I'm a senior executive of one of the largest logging companies operating, so my views and opinions will inevitably reflect that fact. S.I., as its name implies, is composed of many islands. For the purpose of this discussion, we'll ignore the small ones and geographically isolated ones (Ontong Java, Rennell Islands, Makira Province etc.) The most important islands / provinces we need to consider are Guadalcanal Island (Central Province), the Malaitan islands (Malaita Province), and the various islands that make up Western Province (Vangunu Island, New Georgia etc.) As some of the more historically inclined people may know, S.I., and more specifically Guadalcanal Island, was a very important theatre of operations during World War II (WWII). It is believed that the losses suffered here by the Japanese Navy at the hands of U.S. forces prevented Japanese reinforcements from arriving at Midway and turning the tide of the crucial battle there. WWII-related events continues to play an important role even in modern S.I. life, because every year, many war veterans, both Japanese and American, visit the country to grieve for their lost comrades. The thing is before WWII, under the rule of the British (who set up their administrative capital at Honiara on Guadalcanal Province), the populations of the various islands more or less stayed put. However, for various reasons, when the Americans came, for some reason, they found it useful to import large numbers of Malaitan people into Guadalcanal Province to work for them. Even today, most people (me included) believe that Malaitans are more hardworking, sharper, but also more war-like and aggressive than the natives of Guadalcanal. The "Gualais" as they are known, are often thought of as being "dull", "slow" and "lazy". When WWII ended, guess what, the Malaitan population stayed on Guadalcanal, and through the decades, completely dominated economic and political life in Honiara. They bought large tracts of land in and around Honiara from the Guadalcanal natives who subsequently felt that they were "cheated" and eventually the Malaitan population grew to such a point that Honiara became a sort of mini-Malaita. At the end of the 1990s, the major export industries in the Solomon Islands were timber (conducted mainly by Asian, specifically, Malaysian companies) and tuna fishing (conducted by EU fishing boats, yeah, those boats sure range far don't they?, the Taiwanese and the Japanese). There was also a promising gold mining project run by an Australian company on Guadalcanal Island and funded using Asian Development Bank and World Bank money. The thing is most of the logging and fishing were located in the resource-rich Western Province, whose natives are widely considered as shrewd as the Malaitans, though nowhere near as prone to violence. So the situation was that the export earnings of the Western Province were being funnelled to Honiara, heavily taxed by the Malaitan political elite in the capital and only meagre returns were being sent back. This, combined, with the second-class status that many Gualais felt they were being relegated to on their own island, is naturally a recipe for disaster. At around the end of the 1990s, large Groups of young, unemployed Gualais began harrassing and threatening Malaitan people who had bought land on Guadalcanal, asking for return of the land or monetary compensation. These Groups coalesced around a loose organization called the Guadalcanal Liberation Army (GLA, I kid you not), later renamed the Isatabu Freedom Movement (IFM). Eventually, these militias forced Malaitans to leave land located at the outskirts of Honiara. After a bit of this, Honiara felt like a city under siege, since no one dared to enter or leave the city by land. In response to this, the Malaitans formed a group of their own, the Malaita Eagle Force (MEF). There wasn't really much violence at the beginning but mostly they lobbied the S.I. Government (and the Prime Minister of that time in particular, a Malaitan named Ulufalu) to compensate the displaced Malaitans. However, because the GLA/IFM's activities were mainly concentrated in the outskirts of Honiara, the expatriate population at Honiara were mostly annoyed / fearful of the bands of MEF people. Ulufalu continued to deny the Malaitans' request to compensate the displaced people using government money (good for him, I say!) Eventually rumors surfaced in Honiara that Ulufalu was secretly organizing yet another militia group of his own, code-named Seagull, to use against the MEF. This was compounded by rumors and warnings by the GLA/IFM that people who didn't want to be hurt should leave Honiara because they would soon emerge from the jungle and "take" the city. They eventually did take over the Ross Mining facility, and helped themselves to the guns and explosives stored there. The Australians were all evacuated by helicopter. I could hear the chopper going around all day. The MEF, angry at Ulufalu's inaction against the GLA/IFM and worried about being boxed in, decided the best defense was a good offense. In early 2000, they executed a well-planned coup d'etat, taking control of all police stations and armouries in Honiara and placing Ulufalu under house arrest. Well, that was a pretty eventful day to say the least. I woke up expecting just a normal workday like everyone else, but it soon became clear that the whole city was eeriely quiet. There was zero traffic in the street and all telephone lines were down. Everyone was huddled in their homes and then Andrew Nori, a prominent Malaitan lawyer and politician, came on the radio, and announced that the MEF had taken effective control of the city overnight. They had also commandeered the offices and facilities of the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Corporation and the Solomon Islands Telekom Company. At around noon, MEF people, equipped with assault rifles and grenade launchers taken from the government armories began patrolling Honiara. They also started commandeering vehicles from people (we lost two cars and never recovered them). There was sporadic gunfire at the outskirts of the city when the GLA/IFM tried to find out what was happening (I live real close to the western edge of the city so I know). At this point however, the MEF vastly outgunned the GLA/IFM, so there was no real firefight. Another complicating factor was that at this time, three Taiwanese warships were docked at Honiara, part of their annual visit here (the S.I. government recognizes Taipei instead of Beijing, and the Taiwanese give them money in return and try to give a good military showing every year). However, the Taiwanese refused to leave their ships (to be fair to them most of the guys on the ships were young men barely past their teens doing their obligatory military service) but stayed docked. After a while, the MEF and some prominent members of the Malaitan community wrote a letter warning the Taiwanese to stay out of S.I.'s domestic problems and the Taiwanese hauled anchor and left. During this time, nobody left their houses and those who had satellite t.v. stayed glued to CNN (who were really exaggerating the situation here). The next day, we woke up to the sound of heavy automatic gunfire. The MEF had grabbed two police patrol boats and were strafing the coastline outside Honiara with machineguns. There was also some shooting at the international airport, which resulted in the cancellation of all international flights for the foreseeable future. That day, we decided that it would be safer to hide out in the main, expensive hotel in the centre of the city (lots of expats there) than stay where we lived. That very night, while we were gone, our compound was broken into and raided. Heh. But it wasn't until the Australian government decided to send warships to evacuate their citizens that we really started to panic (the Ozzies are leaving? They must know something we don't. Uh-oh.) To be continued ... |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Thanks for the update. A few questions?
So you are still located, relatively save in the Hotel, I hope? Thinking of pulling out yourselves? What nationaliality are you, if I may ask, of course? Do you see any possibility of a peaceful situation when things cool down a bit? |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
I think you've misunderstood. All of that were events in 2000. I've a while to go before I come to events in 2003. Hehe. History, you know.
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Sorry, I thought the Last part was 2003.
I'll wait for the update... |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Note: One reason why I'm writing this is that I hate to see incorrect statements about the current situation in S.I. and leave them uncorrected. However, to really appreciate what's going on here and thereby be qualified to give opinions and comment on the situation, you really need to understand all that's happened, to see the big picture so to speak, and that's impossible without a sort of chronology of events.
Continuing my story... Okay, we heard it first on CNN that Canberra had just authorized warships to evacuate Australian citizens, and we watched an interview in which Alexander Downer, the Ozzie Minister of Foreign Affairs, said that the ships would also evacuate any other foreign national who needed evacuating. As it turned out, when the ships arrived, they took people from rich world countries, i.e. Australia, New Zealand, U.K., U.S. etc. but they refused to take anyone from China, Taiwan, Philippines, Malaysia, India etc. They did take the two dozen or so Fijian soldiers who were in S.I. as "peace monitors" under the U.N. banner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As I recall, they were among the first to board, complete in U.N. colors. I was there at the wharf. I'm Malaysian by the way, but I haven't lived in Malaysia for a long, long time. The wife of one of my colleagues, who was pregnant at that time, was really pissed about this, but I kind of expected it. Anyway, I did specifically request to be allowed to stay behind. I thought it was all great fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif At the same time, more complicating factors: we heard news that the Western Province, backed by Isabel Province and Choiseul Province were making noises about declaring themselves independent of the Solomon Islands. As I said, they had no love of the Malaitan political elite in Honiara, and gangs of people started harassing and threatened Malaitan people who were living in Gizo, the capital of Western Province. One Malaitan youth was killed when he tried to fight back and that really angered the Malaitan population in Honiara. Another important fact: Choiseul Province is located right next to Papua New Guinea, specifically, Bougainville island of PNG. Again, history buffs will know that Bougainville has been struggling for independence from PNG on and off for the past several decades, which means that they have 1) lots of guns 2) lots of experience in guerilla warfare. Add to the fact that many people in Choiseul and Bougainville are friends / family (it's after all only an accident of history that the two islands ended up in different countries), and you realize that the Western Province suddenly has military back up from some elements of the Bougainville Revolutionary Army (BRA). Eventually the Malaysian community here lobbied the Malaysian government hard enough to get the Royal Malaysian Air Force to send a Hercules transport plane in and get some people (including those people from Taiwan, China, India, Thailand etc. that the Australians missed) out. A couple of colleagues went and all of the expat women and children, but most of us (including me) stayed behind. The next few weeks was mostly life as usual in the capital, except for sporadic looting and gunfire, no police and no government. The MEF deployed their people at the outskirts of the city to keep out the GLA/IFM. They even took a bulldozer, fitted it with metal plating armor, drilled holes for guns, and used it to raze a few Gualais villages, but all that was far away from the city. In the meantime, the exodus of Malaitans from Western Province continued, and boatloads of armed BRA people zipped back and forth between Western Province and Bougainville. After a while, the GLA/IFM, being vastly outgunned, simply sort of melted apart, except for Harold Keke's gang of die-hard rebels. The Australians came back in, organized a big meeting in Townsville, Australia, and got the remnants of the GLA/IFM, except for Keke's band who refused to participate, to sign a peace agreement (the Townsville Peace Agreement, TPA) with the MEF. Under the TPA, the various organizations were supposed to disband and all armed parties were given an amnesty period within which everyone who voluntarily gave up their weapons would not be charged for any crimes. So what's the problem, you ask? Simple, the stupid amnesty thing wasn't working, so when its time was up, they renewed it, then extended it again, and again, and again... Just today, I heard on the radio that they are going to extend the amnesty period for one ultra-final, absolutely Last, no exceptions permitted, time. Somehow, I'm not convinced. To be continued... |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
-delurk-
Deccan: Thank you for sharing with us. I have been trying to follow the SI events via CNN and BBC, but it has been very confusing, not well-covered, or not covered in a balanced way. Your Posts have clarified many things for me. Take care. -relurk- |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Thanks Deccan.
Some of these details are new to me (Townsville Peace Agreement) but the time frame seems to be when I was over-seas. I hope we can all work things out peaceable, but I'm not holding my breath... You will keep yourself out of trouble and keep us updated, won't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Interesting reading, Deccan. Thanks.
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
This is great Deccan. It's much like hearing about the Iraq war on television and radio (CNN, BBC, and a coiuple of others) and then reading about it in that one guy's blog. Thanks.
Quote:
[ July 10, 2003, 11:15: Message edited by: Loser ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
I think we should have rules of war and treatment of participant of such. But war is war and few countries that participate in more than a few are going to follow all the rules. You want to talk about inhumane? Let's compare prison systems. I'll give you the point on capital punishment (more to get past it than because I think it is inhumane), and let's talk about treatment of prisoners who have not been so sentenced. But let's do that in another thread. You start it, and I will reply. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Q,
Which parts do we (USofA) not follow? If you mean the treatment of Afgan POW’s, then you need to go back and actually read the sections again. Especially the areas that deal with the requirements that soldiers must meet to gain the protection of the conventions. And it is more than one convention. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Ooo... Good Point.
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Bad point.
If they are not acceptable as POWs, then they should be treated as criminals and been given the basic rights criminals are given (right to a lawyer and so on) There is absolutely no excuse to keep anybody outside of any law and deprive them of their basic human rights. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
Now most of my solutions have been in jest, but that is because there is no good solution. There are a lot of people crying out about the rights of these people, but very few good solutions being offered. Personally, I would like to see them prosecuted (persecuted) under their own Islamic laws. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
I am talking e.g. about the prisoners that are held captive since months without trial and without beeing accepted as prisoners of war at Guantanamo.
This is against the constitution of the US (at least as far as I know). And as I said if you start to make exceptions of the constituation and the basic human rights that are declared in it for certain people you are on the road to tyranny and police state. Are you in the US not concerned about the plans to survey every e-mail, every credit card transaction?? Where will this end? |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
As to the tracking of email and electronic fund transfers, I'm all for it. I abide by the law and have no fears on this point. Lets get real, you will have to trip a filter to get looked at. If you do drug sales or contract murder by email, then it sucks. For me it makes no differance what so ever. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the US didn't stir up this hornet's nest by themselves. However, if we are fighting an enemy who targets obviously innocent civilians and who's only purpose is to destroy as many of my people as possible, then how can I give pause or quarter to them in return? If a man were to break into my house and try to harm my family, I would kill him, or die trying. Unfortunately for me, I can't see the distinction in this case, except my government is doing the figting for me. In response to this quote: Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
And why do you belive what US goverment is doing is actually protecting your chieldren ? I have a feeling US became less secure after this colonial war. Saddam was no danger for US as we can see now. He had no WMD and was keeping religious fanatics in check. [ July 10, 2003, 16:37: Message edited by: oleg ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
While it is U.S. National security that truely motivated that incusrsion (see some of my more hawkish rants in the Iraq thread), these are things that should be taken into account when one wishes to consider 'right' or 'wrong'. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
However, waginbg war on Afghanistan/ Iraq is analogous to going out of your home, finding someone who might be an potential intruder (or a friend of a potential intruder, or someone who is rumoured to be prepared to sell burglary equipment to a potential intruder, or maybe just someone you don't like the look of), breaking into their home, killing a few of hisfamily members and smashing up their possessions. Then, when your target has fled out the back door, you award the contract for the repairs to his home to your best buddy (with the target's surviving family selling off their remaining assets to pay the bill), build a few airbases in his back garden and start threatening the neighbours. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
I firmly believe all government comes from, and remains closely related to, organized crime. I'm not surprised the similarities show so strongly in your stretched analogy, Dogscoff. When a better solution comes along, I'll jump on it (if I don't get too old and static first), but I don't see the dove path working, I don't see the isolationist path working, and I just don't know what else to say (Pax Schmax).
One things for sure. There will continue to be terrorists, but any government is going to think twice before backing them or giving them sanctuary. Of the rest: omelets, eggs, you know the deal. |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
I see your point, but I still see that the government is protecting me and my family. I guess everyone is differnet. Quote:
[ July 10, 2003, 18:04: Message edited by: sachmo ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
and this is how militia Groups form. all of them, in essense, believe they are protecting there own little group. the rule of law must be upheld. everyone must receive justice.
Quote:
|
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How nice. An either/or fallacy with cynical appeal to emotion. Not to mention a bit insulting. Shall I ask how many Iraqi children you were willing to "trade" for "keeping religious fanatics in check" or similar? If you really want to play the appeal to emotions/"what about the chiiilllldren" game, you might want to stop and think about a few things. Quote:
. o O(Why do I get the feeling someone's going to bring in the "well why didn't you go liberate some repressive nation arbitrarily chosen and preferably way out in some area that would take months to deploy to" claim? Wonder if they think WWII was illegitimate because we didn't bust open all the Gulags? Wonder if they're going to use that first claim, then say we don't have enough troops in Iraq? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
spanking all of Europe? After the English had proclaimed “Peace in our time.” and paid a full measure of appeasement? And the time before that when Europe took the world to war over the killing of a has-been royal that probably would have not been able to maintain his holdings for another generation. And in the process set communism loose on the world. Which America then held off at your door step for 50 years at great cost in lives and materials. And lets not forget that most of this crap in the Middle East right now is the result of French and English diplomacy at the end of world wars. IMHO it is far better to stamp the **** out of evil governments right at the start, than to wait until the situation takes on an energy of it own. You speak with the naiveté of a person who has never risked all that he had for the benefit of others. [ July 11, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: OT : Australian intervention in Solomon Islands
Quote:
Once something like that happens in your country, the matter becomes a lot more complicated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am a citizen of the country the Geneva convention comes from, which the US government not longer obeys when it comes to the war against terrorism. But my compassion for the victims of the terrorism is absolutely independent of their passport and I sincerely hope that my reason would still govern my emotions when a relative would be under the victims. But no matter how much I share the cry for justice, no matter how much I understand your concern for safety: the basic human rights must never never never be canceled for a human beeing, even if this human has commited the most horrible crimes. If you go over this line you will end up in tyranny and become inhuman yourself. |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:40 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.