Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

First things first. This thread is not for discussing the merits or fairness of the Talisman or the Talisman ability in any sense. Please see another thread for that discussion.

So, take the Talisman out of the Deeply Religious tree. Now is that tree worth the whole 1500 points?

What is it worth?

What could make it worth 1500 points again?

Can it be made worthwhile without including pale imitations of the Talisman?

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

yes it is worth. religious is an awesome tech tree on its own, i'dbe taking it occassionaly if there wasnt the talisman. A religious player is supposed to be realy difficult to take out - any defending ship you put out is always better than the rest, and its difficult to run intel on you, and your producing more and faster of everything. Religious tree does not need the talisman, or anything else. It stands pretty well along all other racial techs, its just a different Category of such.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't think this worked. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How do you figure?

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't think this worked.

Quote:

Originally posted by Taera: and your producing more and faster of everything.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How do you figure?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know enough to know if one of the shrines you can build helps out in the intel field but in the other remark, I think he's referring to upping resource production.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, yeah, the Time Shrine. Of course. Good stuff that.

I'm pretty sure the previous one he mentioned was the Fate Shrine. And I thought the Intel-defense ability of this facility didn't actually work....

[ July 16, 2003, 19:11: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That facility does not work. What I think it does is to make the system that the Fate Shrine is in less likely to be selected as the target of a random project (when you select random planet, random ship, etc.), but that is it. It is no harder to succeed against a system with a fate shrine (even when the ability is modded up to 100 or so) than it is against a normal system. There is 0 effect on targeted projects.

There is also the Nature Shrine, which increases all planet values. I personally think this is the most powerful non-Talisman aspect of the Religious trait, as it is a lot cheaper to research (IIRC) and much more effective than normal VIPs.

[ July 16, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree that the talisman is a little overpowered, I just don't know how bad it is, really. And the religious structures provide plenty of bonus.

But I like the concept of the talisman. There was that cheezy attempt to revive the Bab 5 franchise, Legend of the Rangers. They all gathered round some artifact, shared some feelings, then locked it away as the spiritual center of the ship -- that was a cool concept.

I think the talisman should do something else. Like be a +90 % to hit, +90 % defence, maintenance reducer, whatever.

But like the Alliegence subverter, this topic has been beaten to death.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and PPB, and PDC, and fighters, and missles, Ionic weapons, and Intel, and ....

Beating topics to death is what we do here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

[ July 16, 2003, 19:46: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Beat elsewhere?

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

I would make it a 1000 point trait then...

or even 750.

The 5 facilites are nice ... But one can do with out them fine.

( advanced storage should be 1500 or 2000 )

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

I like Talisman in AIC mod - it works just like an extra sensors. It is still very good device, extra 50% to hit (at level 6 IIRC) is no joke but not overpowered.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

That is one of the first things I changed in Adamant Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not that I have anything against the pale imitations, but can Religious do with it.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

Religious has gotta have something. Organic, psychic, crystaline all have facilities and a weapon. Religious needs something.

OK, so the shard cannon is pretty weak. And the AS is useless against the master computer. But they offer instant gratification in combat. So does the talisman.

If SE4 had no racial weapons, just the racial faciliites, straight out of the box, I would have thought they were great -- I wouldn't miss the weapons at all.

But would I spend all those racial points on a PBW game without organic weapons or the talisman? Probably not.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

If you take away the Talisman, you should give Religious a weapon component. Everyone else has one.

I suggest a Deus Ex Machina Cannon : skips everything and fires every turn. Size, damage and range would be as required to balance it out.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

I like Erax's idea.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

how about pukes sci fi weapon...

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you mean the Sci Fi Canon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

now imagine that with the GUTB escort mount http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

OMG not the GUTB escort! Aaaahhhh!!!

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

GUTB ESCORT MOUNT

TGM has it

it is 3 mounts

mount one is engines 1/4th size 1/10th supply usage, 10x supply space and 1/10th the cost

mount two is hard componets

10x hp , and 1/10th the cost

mount three is GUTB weapon

10x range, 10x damage 1/10th size , 1/10th cost 1/10th supply usage.

You do not want to hear about whats in the garage... ( yep GUTB mount comes equipt with 2000 cargo space for fighters , drones , sats or mines ) and it is +999 to hit

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you remove the Talisman, IMO that might make it a little more equal, but a different weapon would be nice as well.

I do agree that the Talisman is quite intimidating and I think we should develop a culture that says "Players using Talismans are wusses!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though, I think the way it is, the religious tree is under-priced. In fact, I think most of the tech tree 'prices' should be adjusted a little. I used to play it all the time (before it became the tech; now I don't use it at all 'cause it seems quite powerful. I do agree the facilities are almost worth the cost of the tree without the Talisman (but not quite).

OT: AST has been a fav of mine for a while - please don't raise the cost http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif As it is, in AIC, it's something like 4000 points!!!!! ('course it's a big advantage there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

</$.02>

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

I rmemeber GUTB, or at least I remember someone talking about mid-early game, or perhaps early-early game unstopable escorts and I think that was GUTB, but I do not know this TGM? Mod?

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

Tech Grid Mod. Never done.. Never talked about...

I am on the weapons now and well.... just kind of stopped. It is the way modding goes.... You get in a flow and do lots then all of a sudden you stop. And it is hard to get going again

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

How about some kind of religious conVersion effect? Either an AS-type weapon or a crew insurrection/ PPP intel project?

What I'd love to see are religious community facilities in proportions- kind of a cross between the current city facilities and the existing shrines.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At least the subverter has a counter. Master Computers are costly, but they do free up space as well as prefent subVersion. The subverter does not have the greatest range either.

I do not believe there is an adequate counter to the Talisman. Sure there are things you can do differently than you normally would, but none that will let you win with a near equal economy.

The Talisman can make a 1% to hit into 100%. The religious player does not need to train his ships, but it makes him even tougher if he does.
Defense for a Talisman Ship: 20% Racial, 60% ECM III, Ship Training 20%, Fleet Training 20%, Range 50%+(Closing to range 5 is doing quite well), Stealth Armor 15%, Scattering Armor 15%. Such a ship is almost untouchable by direct fire weapons. That is about 200% defense, disregarding $ boundaries at intermediate points of the calculation). To hit it you have the following: Training + 40%, Racial 25%, Culture 10% Beserker, Sensor III 65%, Wave Motion Gun (30%) = +170% to hit with WMG, +140% with PPBs.

I think with the WMG you have a minimum to hit of 31%, so you might not even need all those modifiers. (I have not used a WMG recently). 31% of your weapons hit every three rounds. That is tough when they plug you with Torpedoes every other round from Max range and then run away while they reload. Or they plug you with PPBs every round. Or they gut your ship with Null Space every three rounds. Or they use Massive Shield killers before the battle starts. Or the pull you in with a Tractor beam, hit you with cheap APBs, and fling you away with Repulsor beams.

Re: Imagine there\'s no Talisman, it isn\'t hard to do
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only on small ships. On Crusier through Battleship, C&C costs 2500 minerals. MC costs 4000 minerals, and some irrelevant amount of organics and rads (irrelevant because they do not affect build times at all, except possibly with certain Organic Man. ship designs). So, using the MC really only costs you 1500 minerals and some piddly orgs and rads more. It is not that expensive, and often doesn't even increase the build time! Now, the things you stick in that extra space might, but that is another issue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

With DNs and BSs, you lose even less by using MCs.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beleive that was changed in either 1.41 or 1.49, so that the weapon bonuses are applied before the 1% or 99% caps. Before, they were applied after, so you can get things like 31% minimum to hit. But now, it is applied before the cap, so there is no longer any extra minimums there.

[ July 17, 2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]