Poll: racial technologies
 

A similar poll has been made some months ago, but I am interested if there is a change after the Last patch which in my opinion diminished the power of the psychic trait considerably.
In a game against human players with unmodded SE IV Gold Version 1.84 would you choose a racial technology and if so which one (only one possible)?

[ July 19, 2003, 12:00: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

woohoo! first vote. temporal. shipyard rate. either that or the 120% space one.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

organic, always my favorite
i also like the crystallurgy tech tree. not for short games, however.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I like to choose all 5 of them, and all 6 plus a minor trait in P&N.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I voted Religious - for obvious reasons. But in my sole games, I use either Crystalline or Temporal. They look more Sci.-Fi. for me. Organics is OK, but it is usually a trait of "bugs" - "Aliens", "Starship Troopers", "On Death Ground", "StarCraft", Shadows and Vorlons in Bab5. Psychic and Religious - complete nonsense IMHO.

Edit: Religious Shrines are fine actually. It is "always hit" of RT that makes me laugh. If it was say +30 to hit, I would consider Religious Trait as "realistic".

[ July 19, 2003, 15:53: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Well, chosing to spend time on one of those traits depends on a lot before I choose any of them. Type of game, probability of being close to someone, number of racial points available, possibilities of allies, etc.

So, for the sake of your poll, I've just assumed all these conditions are favorable for chosing one.

Perhaps another question that should have been asked is: "In what percentage of the games you have played in the Last 12 months have you used one of the traits in the poll?"

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I voted for Temporal since I enjoy their components and facilities more than the other choices. I suppose if it were a real game and only 2000 points, I wouldn't choose any of them.

[ July 20, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I don't think they're complete nonsense. I don't think of them as technological advances (although they could be). I like to envision a stark room deep in the bowels of the ship, a group of Mimbari adepts with their fingertips pressed against a metal table, concentrating ...

...

...

then BLAM. (Insert something cool that happens here)

Terran commander: "What the hell was that"
Science officer: "I dunno, but it ripped past the shields, thats for sur -- Oh no, here comes another one!"

[ July 19, 2003, 18:20: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Still lovin' the organic... might be because I'm a microbiologist...

seriously though, you get quite a suite of weaponry with each advance, and the range on the weapons is pretty good. However I do miss the original organic armor. The Gravimetrics racial trait in P&N is, of course, the best trait of all!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 19, 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

"Original" organic armor? You mean the one that didn't regenerate after combat? What's so great about that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Me, I like playing a variety of traits in different games, though I must say I like the combo of Crystalline + Temporal I picked for the Strange Races game... I originally picked it because the Temporal gives shield depleting weapons and the Crystalline gives armor piercing, which complement each other nicely, but some ways into the game I discovered the facility combos... how about Events Predictor (don't get hit much) + Energy Transmission Lens (even when you do, it's only shields)... or (even better) Temporal Spaceyard (build stuff REAL fast) + Crystalline Restructuring Plant (and you can even afford it!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif (Though I must say the +10 Maintenance Reduction I picked helped out a wee bit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif )

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

All the "regeneration" happened before you were hit... like having 20% more hp by the time you actually engaged the enemy!

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

oleg - your right about organics, thats exactly what they associate with in my mind, thats the reason ive been playing organic races, with few exceptions, in almost all of my games, beginning with the first demo game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
racial combos are too powerful, i dont like 'em. temporal+crystalline is, however, quite evil.

to all those who are talking about OA - there is ab****ely nothing to talk about. While your destroyers might suffer a little, my cruisers are often loaded with 8+ OA which makes the ships very cheap (mid-tech DN builds in 2 turns) AND extremly difficult to kill. And there is the wonder called organic ramming...

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Here are for comparision the results of a similar poll Last year: You could then choose two racial technologies but the option no racial tech was missing.

The results one year ago:

Crystalline: 11%
Temporal: 23%
Psychic: 39%
Religious: 52%
Organic: 44%

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

None, I spend my points on other things. Most people know or can figure out how to work around the racial weapons. But no one can really do anything about to prevent advanced storage, faster shipyards, or superior cunning.

If a game required me to take a racial tech, I could stand to take any one -- that's right even crystaline. The racial tech facilities always rock.

[ July 19, 2003, 12:16: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, heh... this was fun while it Lasted. Especially with OA ramming ships, before ramming was redone too! With larger ramming ships, you could get in a few hits (and then, hits == target destroyed) before you took *ANY* real damage. If you're gonna make a ramming ship now, might as well load it with warheads, since you're not going to survive unless the other ship is a) a lot smaller, or b) a lot damaged.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Actually, organic ram ships are still pretty potent, particularly for the price. In one game, they were my most effective weapon against an enemy who had racial combat superiority over my ships. Not that it makes any sense that it would be easier to ram an enemy ship with a battleship, than it would be to shoot them at range 1...

PvK

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I voted for none, just because I was assuming a 2000 point game, and I like advanced storage and hardy industrialists as a combo. Given more points, I like both organic and temporal.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Until now (30 votes) I find the contrast to the poll Last year quite remarkable: Not a single player chose psychic and religious with the claimed so overpowerful talisman did not attrack that many people either.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I wonder, could it be that there's been few total newbies joining forum since Last year? Once you've tried them all, and seen what they do, what's left to make them compelling?

When the Encyclopedia Malfadorica first started up the topic "Beating the Racials" was started up -- empty. It's been fleshed out for a while now, but maybe no one cares about the Racial Techs anymore.

Ohh.. so there's a 6 th one for P&amp;N, ay? I gotta go try that right now.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I would still pick Psychic, because I love training my ships while guarding the warp points, and building the Psychic Scanner in allied territory to keep an eye of what they are up to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

So, what the heck is so great about Organic...please enlighten me.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Regenerating Strong Armor
*Powerful Ship Weapons
*Extremely Powerful Fighter Weapons
*Plague prevention facilities
*Facilities that increase population faster

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Regenerating Strong Armor
*Powerful Ship Weapons
*Extremely Powerful Fighter Weapons
*Plague prevention facilities
*Facilities that increase population faster</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't forget the BIGGEST factor- the economic edge. Your construction cost, build time, and maintenance will be reduced because a portion of your designs require organics (and less minerals).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 24, 2003, 16:57: Message edited by: Stone Mill ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really. Minerals are still largely required even with Organic Manipulation.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really. Minerals are still largely required even with Organic Manipulation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The standard planet facilities use mostly minerals in the standard game, so those costs are the same for all.

But, when you're building LC's with a couple shields, lots of organic armor, and organic weapons, the effect on build time is very distinct.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Regenerating Strong Armor
*Powerful Ship Weapons
*Extremely Powerful Fighter Weapons
*Plague prevention facilities
*Facilities that increase population faster</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I realize this is a bit OT from the T ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), but, the regenerating armor: If it's blown away completely (you know, that brown hole you see when you look at damaged components), does it regenerate back to an intact component? (or does it have to be repaired first)

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Actually there is more of an advantage to Organics, and that is you receive the whole variety of weapons while researching only one tech tree - direct fire light (electricity), direct fire medium (plasma), direct fire heavy (acid) and seeker (parasite). Plus, the seeker is the best seeker in the unmodded game.

As for facilities.... well, replicant center is very evil.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As long as one organic armor comp on the ship survives all of them will regenerate. If all the organic armor is destroyed but the ship somehow manages to survive it will need a trip to a repair bay or space yard.

Geoschmo

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really. Minerals are still largely required even with Organic Manipulation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The standard planet facilities use mostly minerals in the standard game, so those costs are the same for all.

But, when you're building LC's with a couple shields, lots of organic armor, and organic weapons, the effect on build time is very distinct.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's right. Although minerals are still required you can save time/maintenace significantly with many designs.

Example-organic troops & fighters - you can build twice as many as usual.

And don't knock the overall maintanance reduction if you are using organic components- it is subtle, but helpful.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As long as one organic armor comp on the ship survives all of them will regenerate. If all the organic armor is destroyed but the ship somehow manages to survive it will need a trip to a repair bay or space yard.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, that is interesting. So, the regenerating armor acts like a your own personal repair bay for armor. Meaning, THAT ship only. And, as long as you have one left, you will repair all of the damaged ones in one full turn?

By any chance, is the the same way the (stock) shield regenerator works?

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First question, yes. All in one turn. It starts repairing during combat. If you have enough organic armor and are facing a weak enemy you can actaully repair all the damage done each combat turn before the next combat turn starts. But any armor comps not repaired at the end of combat get repaired at the end of that game turn at least. I am not sure what happens if you engage in multiple rounds of combat per game turn though. (Edited for clarity)

Shield regenerators are different. First of all, all shield points regenerate at the end of the combat round, unless the shield component itself gets destroyed. A shield regenerator allows you to get a few points back each combat turn instead of having to wait till the end of the combat round. But the shield regenerator only regenarates shield points. It does NOT repair the destroyed shield components. If the comps are destroyed the points are gone until you take a trip to a repair bay or space yard.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you have enough organic armor and are facing a weak enemy you can actaully repair all the damage done for each shot before the next shot hits.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, this statement bears some explanation. Let me try to ask my question in an understandable way:

Let's say I have 10 OA 3. Means, I can regenerate 300 points of damage (but only to my armor). So, 1st turn of combat. A ship moves in range and I get hit by a weapon that does 40 points of damage. Not enough to even get rid of one armor component. The combat turn ends. I'm sure my ship is back to 100%. 2nd turn of combat, I get hit 4 times with a weapon that does 40 points each time. 1 armor component gone. The combat turn ends. If I understand everything, my ship is back to 100% again. Now, the tricky part (but the one addressing your statement above). Combat turn 3. A ships does 20 points of damage to my ship. Before it fires, the armor component that was hit regenerates to full status (and somewhere, 20 points of regeneration is recorded). Then, I get hit again, in the same round, by a weapon that does 20 points of damage. My armor isn't destroyed and is regenerated back to full strength. (now, 40 regeneration points have been tallied). A ships fires and hits me again (same combat turn), and does 200 points of damage (causing loss of one complete armor component (and some damage on the next one in line). Now, before I get shot at again, I have only used 40 regeneration points of my total of 300 that I started with. Does this mean that (before I get fired at again), my ship expends 200 more regeneration points (and fixes the tally to 240 total regeneration points used), and my ship is back to 100% strength?

[ July 24, 2003, 20:13: Message edited by: Slynky ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

I should not have given the impression that the armor heals between shots. It regenerates at the end of each combat turn as I understand it. What I meant was facing an enemy that does a low amount of damage per combat turn you can regenerate as fast or faster then he can damage you. But you don't get to regenerate between each shot, only at the end of the turn.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 20:23: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Also- more detail on organic economy in the FAQ-

17.3.13 The Organic Edge

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Thanks a lot guys, for all the help and info. Interesting racial attribute.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Just more info about OA regeneration:

OA start to accumulate regeneration points when it is first damaged. but the actual regeneration occurs only at the moment one (or more) OA pieces is destroyed. That means you will get no regeneration whatsoever if you have only one OA on your ship ! It MUST be two or more.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Which is a good reason to divide the armor into smaller chunks...
Say, 1/5th or 1/6th the size, hitpoints, cost and ability amount.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

actually SJ i find ships with like 6-8 OA's quite powerful.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

He was talking about ships with only a couple OAs, not 6-8. A lot of OA has nothing to do with the lack of regeneration ability with just one OA.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

The poll has gotten a few more votes, and "no racial" seems to be leading the pack.

But ... only when it beats out all other traits combined can we definitively say that the racial techs have gotten dull, which is something I've felt of late.

I play organic because I like the sound of the seeker parasite. I play crystalline because I want a challenge vs. the AI. Temporal, religious, and psychic were fun ... once or twice ... but I saw what they did, and that was that.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

well, excluding talisman i think that racial technologies are not so much of an advantage as a personal style/flavor. I dont play Organic because they're powerful - i play organic because i like playing organic. just because its organic. And i enjoy crystallurgy even though its a very weak trait (initially, at least. no early benefits.)

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Thank you all for voting.
For me the result shows that the racial technologies are not regarded as super powerful and you can play the game without one. That seems to be pretty much balanced. Second within the racial technologies crystalline remains the least favorite but (as I expectected) psychic has lost much after the Last patch. Third in spite of the talisman the religious technology seems not to be too much unbalanced.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

>In a game against human players with unmodded SE IV Gold Version 1.84 would you choose a racial technology and if so which one (only one possible)?<

Was this a vote for favorite Advanced trait or most powerful advanced trait? I vote for what I thought was the most powerful trait, but lately I have become bored playing that one and I will probably not play it again as I consider it unbalanced. I prefer to ban its use. I think some may have voted what they like to play.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I took religious once, in the beta-test game we started before the first release of SEIV. It seemed so unbalanced (once achieved), that I haven't taken it since, largely because I don't want to be despised for spoiling other people's fun by laying waste to them with an ultra-weapon. Certainly not because I don't think it's an ultra-weapon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

Q perhaps you should do a cross poll with racial points to spend.

The flavour on pbw right now is about 2000 points...

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think most votes give good info, 'tho you're right -- there are two questions asked in one. Basically, if it was your favorite, but you've stopped selecting it -- too powerful, unbalancing, so easy it's boring -- then, it's not your favorite anymore.

What may return interest to the racial techs is a revamping. Some friends and I have the idea of making practically all techs racial techs. One race gets meson bLasters, one gets APB, one gets cloaking, etc.

Taking that to a crazy extreme -- one race gets point defence. The rest, do without. One race gets ppb. Everyone else punches through shields the hard way. Likewise, one race gets phased shields, everyone else is at the mercy of the ppb race.

My goal is to actually avoid balance, if that makes any sense. Some races are easy to play, some are a challange. When you select your race at game startup, you would be selecting the handicap you want.

Re: Poll: racial technologies
 

The reason I use Religious tech , well, religiously in my games is for one reason only. Nature Shrines. With one building in the system you can accomplish the same task that would require you to build 2 buildings on every planet! The Fate and Time shines are nice but they are other buildings that are either equivilent or superior. Death and War shrines really only help if your fighting defensively. If you're fighting defensively, you're losing.

The Talisman is a super-weapon. But it's at the peak of insanity when paired with an alligience converter. Then it's an uber-super-weapon.