Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

I like to have as much of my resource production as I can come from asteroids - in the early-mid game I can have half my minerals coming in from remote miners and in the late game, about a third to a quarter. That way I can have all my planet real-estate devoted to research (and later, intelligence) as it should be.

I've found of course that since you can only have one ship mining a location each turn, and you have to pay upkeep on your ships, the bigger your mining ship is, the better - because you can cram more mining modules on it. You can't do this in limited resource games, because the profit you make is pathetic. Except for mining sattelites which don't require upkeep and can be tossed around at will (though I tend to mine moons with those before I colonize them.)
So anyway I took it a bit too far and designed this monstrosity Last night:

Starbase size
Master computer, 19 remote mineral mining modules, 5 remote radioactives extracting modules. And a massive lightning ray for decoration.

I called it a "resource raper" because it sucks the astroid field dry of all its resources. I haven't built one yet but it was carefully designed to cost no more than 40,000 minerals, so that a mobile construction ship can build it in exactly two whole years (I always assume maximum tech level, but you should see the way I play - everyone else's research in the "comparisons" looks flatlined and mine is a hyperbola.)
A quantum reactor drives the price up. You could use 17 miners and 7 extractors if you wanted to include a reactor. Or 21 miners and 3 extractors and let it take another turn... or another combination with a non-organic weapon.

Once built, it's supposed to give a profit of 5,200 minerals after deducting upkeep (that looks awfully small to me, maybe I got the upkeep wrong?) at 100%, and 20,400 at 200% which is the average mining-ship-worthy asteroid field. Plus several thousand radioactives which I was short of when I designed it.

I've already selected a tiny asteroid belt with over 250% minerals and radioactives to build mine on.

Self-destruct device not included; if you need to get rid of it you can just bring back the construction ship to scrap or mothball it when it picks the asteroid field clean. This is a very expensive piece of immobile hardware and needs to be heavily guarded with defense satellites and perhaps a minefield. You could have one satellite fleeted with it, with a quantum reactor (and ecm, cloaking device, scattering armor and combat sensor to support its stack) if you want the "resource raper" to be able to fire its weapon. Otherwise it doesn't need supplies.

So, should I be straightjacketed and tossed into a padded room?

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Bigger is definetly better with remote mining, so if you are gonna do it at all your starbase design is the best way to go. There are those that will say even then it's not worth it, and long term the numbers are on their side of the argument because of the gradual reduction of value due to remote mining. But their is some short term value to your solution, and if it works for you that's really the only point.

Maintenance by default is 25% of the purchase cost, and bases get half that, so 12.5% in your case. If you take merchant culture and/or improve your maintenance characteristic you will increase the profit potential immensly.

Geoschmo

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't use remote mining much anymore but in one game on PBW that I am in I have a few miners out there. These are baseship designs with 14 extractors on them. (I design 3 different ones for the 3 different resource types to gain maximum benifit of each field) And on a field that is only 168% it brings in a net 19kt of minerals; I pay a maintenance fee of 3042M 100O and 466R for a grand profit of 16kt of minerals. (Numbers are roughly the same with my organic and rad miners) So going by that your base will bring in alot more then just a 5200kt that you mentioned.

Hold on and I will go run a test to see roughly how much your miner will bring in exactly.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

What a horrible, unthinkable idea! We must organize a crusade against these pillagers of planetary value!!! Come, let us gather in the Nature shrine!

I can see how that would be quite profitable, but my people would never stand for such a monstrosity. All stellar objects must progress towards becoming shining oxygen-atmosphere jewels with 999% value. Reducing value via remote mining is equivalent to high treason. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Ok, I did a test real quick and here are the results: I made a Starbase and filled it with your design of 19 mineral miners, and 5 rad miners. (I didn't use the massive lightning ray though)

The maintenance that will be charged to your empire each month will be 3000-M 75-O and 453-R.
I built the base on top of a field with the values of 189%-M 93%-O and 136%-R.
Your base will net 29kt-M 0kt-O and 5440kt-R.
Leaving you with a profit of +26kt-M -75-O and +4987-R.
It cost roughly 52kt-M 12kt-O and 7kt-R to build both the base and the space yard ship (striped down Version with only MC, Engines, and Space Yard III and Solar Sail)
So it would take 2 months to cover the minerals and rads invested to build both the base and ship used to construct it, and of course it wouldn't cover the orgs invested due to it having no organic miner componants.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

The other point to consider is that for maximum efficency you should keep your designs to having all the same type of miner components. Instead of some mineral and some rad, you should have all mineral. The field still only reduces in value by 1% a turn and you get more minerals back for that one percent. Once the asteroids are depleted to the point where you aren't getting enough to cover the maintenance you can retorfit the starbase to collect all rads.

Geoschmo

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't forget to budget for the maintenance cost of the Space Yard Ship while it moved to the field and built the monstrosity,

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's an idea. It reduces the total amount of rescources havested a bit, but it cuts down on the time getting the thing setup. Build the starbase with a space yard comp and no miners. Your ship can build that in a few turns and be on it's way. Then your starbase can retrofit itself and add miners every turn. This has the advantage of not needing a return trip form the space yard ship when it's time to switch to rads or orgs. You just have to decide if the loss of four miner comps is worth not having a dedicated space yard ship to service all your remote mining bases.

As long as you don't retrofit to a design without a yard comp. Doh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And when all the resources are bled dry from the asteroid field the starbase can scrap itself.

Geoschmo

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

To me, turning that asteroid field into a planet is by far the better choice over remote mining even though it takes longer to set up. No resource depletion. More defendable. Asteroids usually have very high resource percentages and those become the planet's percentages, you can really rake in the resources - also a great place to build monoliths. I am not really a monolith fan, but on planets made from asteroids, they usually are a winner. Even if you haven't researched the Matter Gravity Sphere to level III yet, you can use it on the smaller asteroid fields. Even in a large quadrant, just 2 planetmaker ships can keep you busy colonizing for quite a while. I usually put the MGS on a Battleship hull so that I can add an emergency propulsion pod (which requires a spaceyard to repair). That way, I can usually zoom to 1 asteroid field per turn per ship, I can have the planetmaker ship retrofit itself as better tech becomes available - especially MSG III; and in a pinch, I can use it to construct defenses over a new planet.

edit: spelling

Slick.

[ July 21, 2003, 16:30: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Slick I agree with you. In standard SE IV creating a planet seems the better choice for me too. If you change however in the settings.txt file the line as follows:

Remote Mining Decreases Asteroid Value := False

then at least for tiny asteroid fields remote mining becomes interesting.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

I am in some PBW games that have Stellar Man disabled so no planets for me, so I have been exploting them metals, but I use a Battle Station with 10 mineral, 2 Org and 2 Rad. but I will change them to all Mineral till its all gone then I can work on Org/Rad, by that time I should have Resource converter.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Remote mining isn't very economical in standard SE4. I don't normally make mining bases, but I dunno they're kinda fun. Kinda scifi. I like the idea of ships prospecting for minerals, or rads, and shipping the stuff back home.

Sometimes I just put 2-3 miners and 1 rad extract or 2 on a battle station, with shields and weapons. Then, the base pays for it's own maintenance, with some bonus early on. Think -- the Bespin Cloud City.

The only problem is essentially wasting research on base construction, I don't really have another use for battle station or starbase. I do it most often if ruins give Base Construction.

[ July 21, 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Bases have infinite supplies. Think of them having a built-in quantum reactor. Adding one (or any supply bays or solar collectors) is a waste of resources and space.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Remote mining isn't an uber strategy by any means, but it does have some nice points and can be useful even in stock games. Assuming you take a low maintenance. And by low I mean LOW. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif 115% maint and merchant culture is as low as you can go. That will cost you 1500 racial points. Of course low maint has other more obvious military advantages, but for the purposes of this argument it makes early remote mining much more of an option. Even a simnlge mining comp on a frigate with that low of maintenance can have a decent return on investment. About the same as a single mining facility will produce. Enough to make it worth the effort. But you should replace them at your first opportunity with larger ships or even bases.

Advantages:

Planets can be totally dedicated to research and construction.

Don't have to wait for space ports to be built before to expolit a new system.

J.I.T. resource production. Running a surplus? move the ships off their asteroids, resources stop and you don't deplete the asteroids unneccesarily. Move them back when your construction queses catch up to your production. (of course this only applies to ships, not bases. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Resource production is not hampered by rioting populations if a few battles go the wrong way.

While it's true that long term efficency is greater leaving the asteroids alone until you can make planets out of them, how many games go that long? And if it does, you can still make a planet and put some value improvement facs on it for a few years. As long as you don't deplete them to zero. But doing that makes no sense as before it gets to zero your ship will be costing you more then it is getting you back.

Geoschmo

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

If you have that kind of building capabilities - you might even want to convert the asteroids into planets then build the appropriate facilities to rake in the most resources over time.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Are you sure you have your cultures right? From Data\Cultures.txt, it looks like Xenophobes have the best Maintenance Reduction, followed by Engineers (my favorite). Traders are tied with Artisans for third (4), Merchants have only 1 point and are third-to-Last (ahead of Berzerkers and Workers (-2) and many cultures with 0 points, and tied with Warriors)

P.S. P&N is one of my favorite mods because I can Think Big and get sats big enough to stick both a computer and a miner on at the second research level. Important for high research cost games.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Actually, you are reading the wrong numbers Atari. The cultures that get maintenacne reduction (in unmodded se4) are:

Engineers: 2%
Merchants: 5%
Renegades: -5% (pay more maintenance)

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Slick. This is exactly what i'm doing in my current solo game against the TDM AI. Besides, i consider remote mining unfair in a solo game since the ai doesn't use it.
The AI does build planets though.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

When playing P&N I choose nomads and crank up my maintanance to the sky. A starbase with the recycling node plus the maint. bonus can have you looking at a maintanance cost of nearly zero!!
And of course when you're playing a nomadic race, you cant really colonize, so remote mining is your only real option. I avoid the satelite option however, you just don't rape enough resource to make it worthwhile (IMHO)

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, I just reinstalled SEIV gold and applied patch 3 and apparently my OLD install is significantly corrupt or something, as the new one now conforms to these values... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

this is a very good but extremly time consuming strategy. i often use medium ships (~cruiser) for that - i load it with normal BR,LS,CQ, then Ion Engines III and the rest with the miners. Then i set orders - go to site -> sentry -> go to ressuply -> repeat orders

and you can forget about it, just check once in a while if it is producing less than it is costing.
Also, if an enemy comes in simultanous, the ship will just break the sentry and go to the ressuply post - probably better defended, and will effectively dodge any possible combats http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sure you know that resupplying is really a waste of time as it has no effect on mining the field. Only thing it does is of course keeps it full of supplies so that when you go to move your ship to a different location that it can move at full speed instead of just 1. But leaving to do so limits your overall production from the field as you have to pay the maint to travel to the resupply base and back.

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

True enough, but later in the same post Taera mentions the fact that the miners heard for cover if an enemy approaches. This would require them to maintain supplies. And while sending them for resupply does temporarily halt production, getting killed stops it permenantly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Well, at least until you build a new miner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

No one has mentioned Large Sats. with minors. Is it because of the micro manegment night mare or?...

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Large sats are a "don't bother" research item in my book. I go for the mega-bases instead, because you get so much more resource out of them. Large satelites just don't fit enough miners for my money. This is, of course, a personal preference thing. I just feel like the large sat would be getting very little out of the asteroid belt considering I'm permenantly reducing it's mining potential by 1% each turn. But I am a bit of a tree hugger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those are far down in my research priorities. Like a broken record ... If a ruin gives me sat tech ... I will send a constructor ship to a asteroid sector. I'll launch a miner, farmer, rad..um..radder? I'll top it off with maybe an attack sat, maybe large sensor/scanner sat, and a cloak sat to cloak the stack.

It will give me a few resources, and it will cover some maintenance when I go MEE. When TDM modpack sensor ships find them, the AI will waste some time blowing them up. A mine or two is fun.

But none of this will ever fool a human.

[ July 22, 2003, 19:24: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Large SATs with MINORS?

Why in no time those children (minors) would be crashing the SATs into each other like bumper cars. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Any kindergarten teacher could tell you about micro management nightmares. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Would you use this giant remote miner?
 

Yeah, what Wardad says! And the minors crashing the sats is not all. Child labour is Banned also. It's illegal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
* minipol quickly opens his designs book and erases the minor driven sats *