Two down and two to go
 

"July 23 — Saddam Hussein’s fugitive sons Odai and Qusai were killed Tuesday during a raid on a mansion in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, the commander of allied forces in Iraq said. Gunfire and explosions erupted in Baghdad as Iraqis celebrated the news."

http://msnbc.com/news/870749.asp

Sucks to be a Hussein today.

Re: Two down and two to go
 

Quote from article "The two other casualties were a teenage boy — possibly Qusai’s 14-year-old son, Mustapha, who was known to travel with him "

I regret that such a small boy needed to die also. I already lived double the life he had.
Although i do not regret the death of Sadam's 2 sons who are known to have been *very* cruel to their people.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I regret this as well, but according to the reports it was a four hour pitched battle with over 200 American soldiers. There were the four casualties and none captured. What these numbers tell you is it's quite obvious that the army was attempting to take them alive. The only way three men and a teenager could hold off 200 members of the 101st Airborne division for four hours is if they were trying to capture and not kill. Unfortunatly it didn't work out that way as the four were apparently not willing to be taken alive.

Geoschmo

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As I understand it, he was his dad's bodyguard, and died fighting. Hardly an "innocent bystander".

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innocent has more to do with understanding than actions.

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I'm glad for this victory, but what seemed like an odd thought came to me. I wonder if, as a father, Saddam is sad for the loss of his sons.

Just a thought.

Mathias Ice

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not mourn him as anything but a dead terrorist/patriot. Being a child at 14 is a western perception. In much of the world, 14 year olds serve in the army. In Iraq, 14 year olds are expected to earn a living, unless they come from wealthy families. A 14 year old kid with and AK or RPG will kill you just as dead as a 25 year old. While I do not agree with this use of young people, I am not willing to offer them any special treatment. Especially at the expense of the men under my guidance. He became an adult when he picked up a weapon, and I’m sure the world is better off without him. I seriously doubt that he was salvageable as a person.

This war has turned into a police action against an irregular army. You can bet that if we don’t stamp it out quickly, more 14-year-olds will kill and be killed in Iraq. We are taking casualties every day in Iraq. It is time for us to begin taking the war back to the supporters of Saddam. Let them fear the night and know that there is no place where they have sanctuary. Let them die and suffer until there can be no doubt that they have known war and desire only peace.

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i believe it is an occupation army the people of iraqi are fighting. Invasions and conquests have a history of ticking off the locals.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From what I've read, he'll probably be glad that the US army got to them first instead of himself; and even more joyeous that both of his sons were killed, since they probably knew where their father's hiding place is.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then how come the Shiias and the Kurds aren't taking up arms and taking down every american they're finding?

Almost all the attacks on American troops have been happening near Baghdad, Tikrit, and Mosul; All Sunni centers, all baath controled, and all places where Saddam's rule weren't as harsh than in Kurdistan or Basra.

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at fourteen, i, as i am now, wouldn't have put myself in the army. and i don't think you have a right to judge wether the're salvagable.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe it was an opinion. Which everyone has a right to.

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mines an opinion, to.

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Unfortunately, in many parts of the world, that 14 year old is now probably a martyr and a few thousand more potential terrorists are moving to 'the dark side'.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i guess that got me thinking there where two teenage boys.

how many people would fight there own family when there family does something wrong? that takes a particular kind of strength.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where do you get “they” from? I was speaking on one person, the grandson of Saddam, who was well on his way to becoming just like dad and granddad. He is from a rich family, why wasn’t he off in Europe at some ritzy boarding school? IMHO it was because his life’s work was going to be the killing and abuse of the average people of Iraq. And the best place to learn that trade was from a pampered ******* like his dad. Tell me something. Did either of Saddam’s sons serve during the war with Iran? Perhaps lead men in the field, or fly strike missions into Iranian air space? Perhaps they were leading tank columns during the gulf war. Or perhaps they were taking advantage of their countrymen; killing people that didn’t show the proper respect, or were born into the wrong family. Taking and committing rape against the daughters of their neighbors, who dared not complain. And for this they were rewarded with high positions within the government. With role models like that, I personally have no doubt that the 14 year old in question was a little savage bastard, and beyond redemption in this life. Had he any inclination towards honor, he would have turned his AK on his father and uncle.

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Pictures of Itchy and Scratchy on MSN

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=072420031150

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From www.CNN.com report:

"Officials said the bodies would be kept refrigerated at the airport until a family member comes forward to claim them"

-hi, my name is Sadamm, I want these bodies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh jeez, now i *know* I'm playing too much nethack. I read that Last post and wondered what sort of intrinsics they might have...

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mmmm....
nethack....

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hmmm thinking about this one all weekend.

I believe what they did there was wrong.

Excessive force.

I think that they should have been captured and put on trial.

As they would have been shown for what mosters they where.

And they would have been able to reveal all that they knew about Iraq, wmd, Halliburton etc...

hmmm... Perhaps that is why they were killed with such excessive force.

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Tesco, if they wanted to kill them the battle would have been over in about 15 minutes. The only reason it took so long is they were trying their damndest to take them alive and to avoid collateral damage to the neighborhood. So yes it's unfortunate they were killed and didn't stand trial, but don't try to say they did something wrong. The first soldiers on the scene didn' teven know who they were trying to capture other then it was high level officials.

Geoschmo

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a thought, but did you miss something Geo said earlier in this thread?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Edit: I hate it when my signiture is correct.

[ July 28, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh jeez, now i *know* I'm playing too much nethack. I read that Last post and wondered what sort of intrinsics they might have...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL!

Yeah, play nethack for a week straight and it's kinda hard to break the habit of thinking what you might get for eating that monster, isn't it?

Just think of them as a 'quest' items. The bodies of these monsters are needed to accomplish something else.

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ah yes 4 lightly armed men going up against 101st airborne company with support. They only had ak47 and pistols.

hvt 2, 3 should have been captured alive at all costs from an intelligence point of view.

perhaps instead of 50 cal, tows , kiowa helicopters they could have used a swat team with teargas or just a plain old simple wait them out.

I do believe that hvt 2 and 3 were more important alive than dead.

that is all i am saying.

And with the way the attack was laid out. 4 hours is about right with the various stages of the attacks.

As it went from initial contact to verification.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, it wasn't really all you were saying, but that's ok. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And I agree with you it would have been better had they been taken alive. And I believe the military does as well. But waiting has some serious risks from their escape, to counter attacks from other forces under cover of dark. Especially considering this part of Iraq isn't exactly soldier friendly. (As if any part is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ) Allowing them to get away could have had more serious implications then getting them killed trying to capture them.

Geoschmo

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And was it necessary to show to the world the reconstitued bodies of the two Hussein brothers? I mean, what's next? Saddam's head on a pike on CNN?
Why isn't people reacting against this?

Should this have been the other way around, Iraq would have been nuked by now (ok, it's a little extreme, but you know what I'm talking about).

This is truly grotesque.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Once again this is a matter of damned if you do and damned if you don't. The initial intention of the US was to NOT release the pictures as it is agaisnt our policies and standards. Only after a HUGE backlash from the Arab world and accusations of bumbling, coverups and cultural insensitivity did they agree to allow photos. The Iraqis WANTED the pictures released and most that were interviewed insisted they wouldn't believe they were dead unless the pics were shown.

You didn't hear about that?

Geoschmo

[ July 29, 2003, 13:38: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

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yea that was a double edged sword to show the pictures. The US gov did what they had to do.

They released the picutures. Now CNN showing them every 5 minutes... That was CNN not the US Gov

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't agree with you more. There is no good reason for CNN and others to be showing these pictures over here constantly. Most westerners couldn't have picked the brothers grim out of a lineup even before they were all shot to hell. It's not like we need to see the corpses to believe they are dead. It's pure Ratings garbage.

Geoschmo

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Couldn't they have found a person or small group of people that are trusted by the middle east and asked them to to view the bodies in private and confirm the identities? Surely there must be some leading figure in Saudi or Kuwait or occupied Iraq or somewhere who would a) recognise the corpses and b) be believed by the majority of Iraqis.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I heard that Al-Arabiya or Al-Zajeera interviewed the former iraqi head of intelligence to confirm the bodies, and that he said that he's very skeptical.

I suppose that's as close as you can get to having an official examine the bodies.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They did exactly that initially and there was still a great level of disatisfaction among the Iraqis in the street. They wanted to see it for themselves and weren't going to be satisfied until they did.

You read Salam Pax's blog don't you D? Check out his post from the 24th for a local perspective. It was made after the initial press conference when the photos were not released initially, and before the photos were eventually released. He was extremely put out. More so then he normally is about stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

Geoschmo

[ July 29, 2003, 15:31: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

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Well the damned if you do/don't thing surely applies here. Now people on the street are mad because they say that the Americans have no respect for the dead. People are still mad and skeptical. Not much good was done with this.

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Haven't read Dear Raed in weeks. Damn Nethack. Thanks for reminding me, G.