Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

I was seeking some good old fashioned rollocking fun after the hard work at Mictlan and blood in general. Remembering how well Centaur Warriors worked I had another look at Jotun Woodsmen. They are relatively cheap (50gps, 11res), fairly staucnh and have strat move 2. Here is what I came up with.

Jotunheim Utgard theme
Green Naga, nature10, Fire4, Dom6
Order3, sloth2, cold2, growth1, misfortune3, drain2.
Castle (could take the fortified city)

Nature 10 only costs 64 more points than 9 and gives you another point of berserk which is big. The fire is for hitting as with all that power but reduced troop density its pays to be able to land the few blows you get in. Sloth3 is an option though its a little annoying early. The drain scale sucks and the low dominon is not good. However the positives are big.

The Woodsmen are excellent as regeneration (4pts a rd) reduces battle inflictions, berserk raises the prot to 13, attack 19, strength 26, and the 50% poison resistance is a big bonus versus Pythium and C'tis.

The Herses and Jarls are also very effective. Build a Gode first turn who becomes the prophet for Divine Blessing and Fanatacism. Early-ish you should build one Seithkona for Pendants of Luck, build Jarls and Godes as needed to keep the troops blessed and Herses the rest of the time. Once things are going well throw in a Norna for searching and use extra gold along the way for Spearmen.

The Naga researches construction to 4, with a little help, and then you have the option of alt1 for eagle eyes, evoction1 for star fires, perhaps enchantment 3 for raise dead. Panic would be nice as its a nature spell whose affect grows with your power. Still not planing on rushing into anything with the Naga as don't want to lose it before it gets to play with some high lavel magic.

Later targets are thaumaturgy 6 for Beckoning - must be awesome with nature10 - and Conjuration 6 for summon Lamia's. I'm hoping summon Lamia's will be very impressive with the high nature and the Naga's special ability of getting more. Are Lamia's sacred or is that just my memory being hopeful?

Armies are organised with a few heavily armoured spear or axe in the centre and Woodsmen on the flanks. If you only have one Spearman/Axemen then put it on "hold and attack" to keep the enemy archers busy. Make sure you get all the Woodsmen blessed. Casualties are 0-2 a battle vs indies and you only need about 10-15 for an early conquering army.

Here is how it is going on Desert Eye, no wrap around, indies 6, 11 impossible ai's.

Its turn 14 and borders are firming up (though there is still some room to grow vs indies). 18 provinces, income 936, 5 giants on the hall of fame and more coming soon.

Units are 40 Woodsmen, 9 Axe/Spear, 2 Jarls, 3 Gode's, 4 Herses plus 1 Norna, one Enchantress (yay!), and two Seithkonas at home making amulet and now researching as I get to con4 and look forward to making some research skulls.

In the first try I used up the death gems on Helmets of Fear but while thats cool you need the death gems for research unless you can find plenty extra quick. I have also built the odd Totem shields for a Gode, very vindictive, and will be building rainbow armour for any mages who go to battle. In the previous go I built some enchanted swords for my first war to get the attack stats up but having taken fire4 in this one I haven't bothered. I used the Earth Mother first time but I prefer the naga with it sasbiltiy to take other paths (fire in this case) as I found hitting reliably a real issue. Damn gladiators proved hard as to break through.

One of the big questions is what to mix in to the giants as small creatures can occupy the same space as a giant making up for reduced number of attacks per square. Winter wolves were great for this in Dom1 but not so easy to get with this race early. Skratti are cute but that means giving up on the Seithkona's who are awesome item forges and decent researchers even in a drain race

The other question is fortified city or not. Probably the answer is yes due to the extra supply and the Woodsmen being capital only.

I like this race. Its fun equiping a whole bag of semi-SC's and knowing you are going to be churning out 1 or more a turn by the time you get your first extra castle built - I have just started mine. And its nice to have a whole army of large Giants to (hopefully) mess up the targeting on nasty spells - or if that fails be tough enough to do the job themselves. In one big battle vs Pythium in my first run I only had 3 berserk Woodsmen and a Jarl left at the end but I still won.

cheers

Keir

[ January 07, 2004, 11:26: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

I was thinking that Jotunheim might be a real kicker with the Water Cult theme. Not only all the benefits of Jotunheim but being able to walk all your giants into the water wherever your dominion reachs? Sounds like a powerhouse.

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

Isn't the new path cost for the Green Naga bugged? I was playing around with Green Naga for Miasma Ctis, and it seemed I was double charged for the 2nd path...

Anyway, nice strat for Jotun, I had fooled around with the Woodsmen as well, though I went water9 nature4 with a Son of Neifel. The quickness was pretty nice with them on the flanks (as you say), and since most (if not all) of the commanders are sacred getting quickness on them was nice too. Actually I think I was using the Neifel theme where maybe more of the commanders are sacred, I can't remember the other Jotun themes anymore since I'm addicted to Neifel Giants http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

My biggest problem though was finding something useful to use all my water magic on, the summons just didn't seem as 'cool' (heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) as other paths. I usually set up some blood anyway, though that's probably sub standard for Jotun, but Ice Devils do fit in pretty well once you get to them.

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

Just tested the Green Naga and she's working fine now, with a 20 point opening cost, in the beta-patch. I'm not sure if she was bugged before or not.

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She was bugged before, with a 40pt cost, glad to hear its fixed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't believe they are sacred, but I *am* sure they are cold-blooded. A point to consider.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Consider Manikins to mix with the giants. Since you're concentrating on construction anyway, they'll give you a good way to use your nature gems.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree on the Herses - especially with the bless effects you've managed to get. I've never found a good reson to build Jarls though. They're a bit better than the Herses, but much more expensive. And the Godes have the priest power for Sermon of Courage. How are you using the Jarls?

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't believe they are sacred, but I *am* sure they are cold-blooded. A point to consider.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops - good point. Damn, damn, damn.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Consider Manikins to mix with the giants. Since you're concentrating on construction anyway, they'll give you a good way to use your nature gems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good idea. The other idea I had is summon spirits which would be great but is along way to go with research.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree on the Herses - especially with the bless effects you've managed to get. I've never found a good reson to build Jarls though. They're a bit better than the Herses, but much more expensive. And the Godes have the priest power for Sermon of Courage. How are you using the Jarls? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jarls can bless and some turns I don't want to spend the extra gold for the Gode but need a bless capable commander. In the long term Gode's are more the way to go but the odd Jarl can be handy as they are an improvement over a Herse as an SC and if you are beaking one commander off to do a job they are much better than Herses but not as expensive as Gode's. Sermon of Courage, while always good, is not as important due to the high morale and berserk keeping the Woodsmen going.

I must admit to being rather happy at having made a race using a magic path at 10 work well.

I'll get some more play in today and see how it shapes out as the game goes on.

A thanks to Saber for the combat sim results which made me think about Woodsmen again.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting strategy. I wonder if Iron Woods would work better with your plan? 25pts cheaper, plus extra death gem income from the start is usable for those helmets and skull mentors.

Alex

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't believe they are sacred, but I *am* sure they are cold-blooded. A point to consider.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are not sacred and are cold-blooded. So they get VERY fatigued pretty quickly. OTOH, you get +2 lamias for every point of nature magic beyond minimum, so 10N mage makes *really* good use of 5 nature gems. What was it, now... 3 lamias per casting, 3N requisite... that makes 3+2*7 = 17 lamias per casting, IIRC. Not too shabby at all!
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Consider Manikins to mix with the giants. Since you're concentrating on construction anyway, they'll give you a good way to use your nature gems.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No to Manikins, yes to Mandragoras. They're the ones that get additional units for higher nature skill, unlike Manikins (was it 10 per 10 gems?).

Point is that Jotunheim desperately needs bulk troops to mix with giants. You cannot rely on indies unless you find and fortify a decent province. I'd go for a mix of both Mandragoras and Lamias (if high-nature pretender) for mass-summons so that not all of the army is banished to oblivion. Mix in the occasional clockwork horror.

I kinda like the Ether Gate too, ethereal troops with magic weapons, but they are expensive - 90 pearls for 20-ish troops and leader (which seem to have same magics than nornas). Mix in dispossessed spirits and you have your frontline troops. BTW, do Ether Gate's troops' moon blades and -lance do double damage to magic beings as per forgable moon blade?

- Humer

Re: Fun with Jotunheim - Utgard theme
 

I'm up to turn 24. 30 provinces magic alt1, evo3, con4, ench2, thaum2. I'm over twice the nearist opponent in gold and provinces, equal top in gems, well back in research and ther abouts in dom.

Things have been busy with lots of pressure from AI's as the starting to position is in the narrows on the dragon eye map. I've been attacked by Caelum at one end, Arco in the middle and lately C'tis at the other end.

The war with Caelum was the first one and Caelum is simply to far away from my main area (eastern section of the Eye map) for me to want to commit against. I drove off their intial attack and grabbed 3 provinces but since then have only fenced with them as Arco in the middle was a far more serious threat.

Arco jumped my castle in the mid lower western rich area despite my best attempts to leave them an expansion route around the bottom of it. They had a big army with elephants and I had sent my prophet and n.1 hero east vs Caelum so they got to break down the walls before I could get a releaving army there. Attacking someone an assault is really strong in dom and thats what I did. I saillied forth with ~7 giant axemen/spearmen, one Gode and 4 Herses and a relieving army of 7 woodesmen, a herse, and a Norna with mind burn charged in. Twas brutal. The Norna took out the elephants on morale but the Axe/Spear unit broke reasonably early (they got to retreat to - is that a gliche). The main weight of my blessed troops fell on the Arco left and as these were berserkers nobody ran. By the time they were killed off Arco had lost all bar 2 commanders and 60 odd trooper out of their army of 120. And then the assualt. I only had a scout holding but their assualt force ended up being two commanders so it was an easy repulse. Two turns later I have relieved the Castle and Arco has been jumped by Tien Ch'i and is in big trouble - I will leave them to it.

C'tis must have suffered from an ego rush as they decided to jump in on the fun and have a go at me at my western extreme. As this is the area I had only just finished conquering indies in I had a fair few Heroes around , two castles and a moderate number of troops. C'tis was pretty weak and is taking a good thrashing. This is good as its acutally the most logical direction for me to develop as I won't have any land borders with other players from the newly captured territores. Unfortunately Caelum is running around in the northen Sea with a Wyrm (Shad Foth the n.1 Hall of Famer) but its got no real troopers and I've got Seithkona and Totems shields waiting for it.

Mind Burn is great vs elephants, Healing light is good with Seithkona backing Giants and I'm going to throw in some nasty shooty spells. I have a couple of fire2 air1 enchantresses out searching but once they find some fire gems I'll use them as battle mages with aim and fireball for starters.

In terms of future research I'll go evoc 4 this turn, con 5 to try Mandragora's, then its either thaum6, conj6 or evoc7. Research will go better if I can find some more death gems - income of 2. Once I do it should flow naturally enough.

Item wise Pendants of Luck have been replaced by Lucky Coins as my staple and Rainbow armour for Seithkona is awesome (gets all my air gems) and Totem Shields are working well vs the big nasties starting to abound. I've built a couple of Frost brands for serious damage dealing and one of the Herses with one butchered a slightly damaged elephant in one blow.[paragraph edited for mistakes]

Its a good game with lots of challenges and requiring extremely carefully strategic play. My starting position made long borders inevitable and I have worked hard not to be to greedy and make them longer than necessary, I'm having to keep my best army in reserve which is a pain but also has been a life saver.

My two best hero's are my first Herse, Grodvitner, who has tough skin and a prot of 23 and the Herse Gymer who has quickness. However the Jarls are close behind and there ability to bless and fight saved me from taking a heavy blow when C'tis first attacked as they attacked on a wide front and I sent the Jarls off with a couple of Woodsmen each, on guard commander, and they did the job. Their flexibility is really great and they save you from making the mistake of ending up with a big stack of Herse's and only 1 (or none) Gode. I really wish the Gode looked more different from the Herse. You end up with alot of commanders.

I've had a go with Manikins but as I only had one squad with an army they proved banishment bait. Still could be good with lots in one army deployed behind the giants and coming through them to support.

I will try Mandragora's but I will need to empower my present pretender to be able to really abuse it. As you say Hummer getting little guys to support the big guys is the big question. I suspect having some armies with undead and some not is a good idea as you will need alot of undead to be worth it.

Lamia's are still going to be useful vs heat nations as with a low dominion there is a lot of heat around.

The Iron Woods theme would be cute and the extra points could get death1 for Mandragora abuse. However Seithkona are awesome mages - one of the best in dom. The amount of things you can do with one astral1, nature1, or with death1, astral1 is really crazy. The only major weakness is fatigue and this time round Rainbow armour is doing a good job there - yay for the Enchantresses. Norna's are not bad but need a way of moving faster. Do boots of long strides increase strat movement? Boots of flying for a few key character is probably next.

Anyway I got visitors so its bye for now,

Ciao

Keir

[ January 09, 2004, 00:28: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]