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T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Hi,

This mod can't be done now, since it requires new weapons. It basically would reduce the magic & priestly power of T'ien Ch'i in exchange for lots of gunpowder units. Why T'ien Ch'i and not Ulm for this theme? Well, the Chinese invented gunpowder, didn't they? Costs are very approximate.

Leaders:

keep the Eunuch, General, Imperial Consort, and Scout

replace the Prince General with capital-only Eunuch Admiral (basically a Eunuch with ocean sailing, costs 50 gold & 1 resource - based on the great Chinese admiral Cheng Ho of the early Ming Dynasty)

add Bombardier (basically like the Ulm Siege Engineer except that his siege bonus is 50, his leadership is 0, his strategic movement is 1 - cannon are slow - and his cost is 80 gold & 50 resources)

replace all mages and priests with the following three units -

Shao-Lin Monk (priest level 2, astral level 1, improved fist attack [damage STR-2, armor piercing, attack +1, defense +1, two attacks] & one kick attack [damage STR+0, attack +0, defense +0], cost 110 gold & 1 resource)

Shao-Lin Master (priest level 3, astral level 2, earth level 1, same attacks as above, cost 220 gold & 1 resource)

Alchemist (three random elemental skills, receives the same bonus to alchemy as the Master Alchemist pretender, cost 120 gold & 1 resource)

Units:

keep all 3 crappy Footmen, both Imperial Footmen & Imperial Horseman

replace Sacred Red Guard with Sacred Shao-Lin Initiate (aka "Grasshopper" - no magic but same attacks as his Shao-Lin masters, cost 15 gold & 1 resource)

replace Archer, Imperial Archer, Imperial Crossbowman, Imperial Guard, Horseman & Heavy Horseman with the following gunpowder units -

Harquebusier (same armor as Imperial Archer, carries short sword & harquebuse [damage 18, armor piercing, precision -3, range 25, ammunition 15], attack, base defense, precision & morale 10, cost 10 gold & 17 resources)

Crossbowman (same as Imperial Crossbowman, except replace crossbow with repeating crossbow [damage 10, precision -1, range 30, ammunition 12, two attacks / round - note that this weapon is NOT armor piercing], cost 13 gold & 18 resources)

Grenadier (same as Imperial Guard except add a grenade attack [damage 18, precision +1, range STR, ammunition 1], cost 15 gold & 21 resources)

Rocketeer (same armor as Archer, armed with dagger & rocket [damage 18, area effect radius 1, precision -6 (!), range 40, ammunition 3, causes panic in area of effect], attack & base defense 10, precision 11 & morale 12, cost 30 gold & 12 resources)

Dragoon (same armor as Horseman, but fights dismounted, armed with short sword & harquebuse [stats as above], attack & base defense 10, precision 11 & morale 12, strategic movement 3 - rides horses between battles - cost 25 gold & 9 resources)

Horseman (same as Heavy Horseman, except replace composite bow with pistol [damage 12, armor piercing, precision -2, range 20, ammunition 2], cost 25 gold & 28 resources)

Comments: I'm not sure about balance here. Priest power is average, with the disadvantage that there is no cheap Temple-only level 2 priest. I'm not sure whether the sacred unit is worth it - three attacks, two of which are armor-piercing, but all have damage. Mages are weak, although there are some interesting options. The Alchemists are like stripped-down Versions of Arco's Mystics, giving some magical versatility. The Shao-Lin priest-mages aren't super-powereful, but they do have access to communion. The one ocean-sailing leader provides some strategic flexibility, although he is something of a specialist. Even more so the Bombarider - I wonder if players would really build such an expensive and highly specialized unit.

Regarding the gunpowder weapons: the two guns are armor piercing for obvious reasons - bullets can pierce armor pretty easily, no bullet-proof vests in the medieval world. The explosive weapons (grenade & rocket) are not armor piercing because they do damage with shell fragments. Damage is very high due to the great momentum of high-velocity bullets and the sheer carnage influcted by flying shell fragments - pistols do less damage because the muzzle velocity of early pistols was much less. Precision is univerally bad because early gunpowder weapons were very inaccurate. The one exception is the grenade - I boosted its precision because it only needs a near miss to "hit". Rockets are especially inaccurate - almost more dangerous to friend than foe. Harquebuse ammunition is the same as the sling because the ammo size is about the same. Pistols have ammo 2 because horsemen don't have two free hands to reload and thus they carry two pre-loaded pistols. Grenadiers carry one grenade, thrown prior to melee - this can really mess up lightly-armored troops. Rockets have ammon three because this sounded about right, and they have a panic effect because they make a terrifying high-pitched screaming noise during flight. The repeating crossbow is based on an actual Chinese weapon - its bolts are smaller and so aren't armor-piercing and have shorter range, but it can rapid-fire like a medieval machine gun (Okay, its not quite that good).

Any thoughts or criticisms?

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by Simmy Sims:
Alchemist (three random elemental skills, receives the same bonus to alchemy as the Master Alchemist pretender, cost 120 gold & 1 resource)

Quote:

Harquebusier (same armor as Imperial Archer, carries short sword & harquebuse [damage 18, armor piercing, precision -3, range 25, ammunition 15], attack, base defense, precision & morale 10, cost 10 gold & 17 resources)

Even with an effective precision of seven, this is probably far too damaging. It wouldn't do that much more damage than an Arbalest.

Quote:

Comments: I'm not sure about balance here. Priest power is average, with the disadvantage that there is no cheap Temple-only level 2 priest.

Level 2 independent priests are so common that this isn't a real disadvantage.

Quote:

Mages are weak, although there are some interesting options. The Alchemists are like stripped-down Versions of Arco's Mystics, giving some magical versatility.

Arco's Mystics are some of the most powerful mages available to any nation. A better base cost would be Master Smith's, plus some for the versatility, then plus a few hundred or so for the unique ability that is only available to the Master Alchemist and an artifact. Three random elementals is very powerful. The chance of getting 2 in one path is 1/16, while three is 1/64.

Quote:

Regarding the gunpowder weapons: the two guns are armor piercing for obvious reasons - bullets can pierce armor pretty easily, no bullet-proof vests in the medieval world.

Modern bullets propelled by modern fast-burning powder can penetrate armour quite well. Medieval bullets, powered by slow burning black powder won't be nearly as effective. Black plate should probably be enough to stop them since some Gothic armour available at the end of the medieval era was bulletproof.

Quote:

Harquebuse ammunition is the same as the sling because the ammo size is about the same.

Are you counting the powder for the shots?

Quote:

The repeating crossbow is based on an actual Chinese weapon - its bolts are smaller and so aren't armor-piercing and have shorter range, but it can rapid-fire like a medieval machine gun (Okay, its not quite that good).

You might want to compare the repeater to a shortbow for terms of how much damage they would do. The repeater is going to have a much smaller draw than a shortbow if it can be fired that quickly, so it would probably be less damage than 10.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Black plate should probably be enough to stop them since some Gothic armour available at the end of the medieval era was bulletproof.

Which is precisely why the musket was invented ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Simmy Sims:
Alchemist (three random elemental skills, receives the same bonus to alchemy as the Master Alchemist pretender, cost 120 gold & 1 resource)

Three fixed magic picks cost at least 140 gold on most units. Three random, elemental magic picks plus a bonus to alchemy that only an Ulm specific pretender gets is going to have to be more than that. That much magical versatility makes this mod _more_ magically powerful than the base T'ien chi.<hr /></blockquote>Good point. Maybe give them the same cost as the Mystic? (180 gold). I'd like to give them a lesser Version of the alchemy bonus (50% more gold instead of double), but I doubt that would be possible.

On second thought, maybe they should have only two random elemental picks, and drop the cost back to 120. I don't really want them to be that magically powerful.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Harquebusier (same armor as Imperial Archer, carries short sword & harquebuse [damage 18, armor piercing, precision -3, range 25, ammunition 15], attack, base defense, precision & morale 10, cost 10 gold & 17 resources)

Even with an effective precision of seven, this is probably far too damaging. It wouldn't do that much more damage than an Arbalest.<hr /></blockquote>True. Maybe damage 14 (same as the arbalest), instead. Keep damage 18 for the explosive weapons, though, since they aren't armor piercing.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mages are weak, although there are some interesting options. The Alchemists are like stripped-down Versions of Arco's Mystics, giving some magical versatility.

Arco's Mystics are some of the most powerful mages available to any nation. A better base cost would be Master Smith's, plus some for the versatility, then plus a few hundred or so for the unique ability that is only available to the Master Alchemist and an artifact. Three random elementals is very powerful. The chance of getting 2 in one path is 1/16, while three is 1/64.<hr /></blockquote>I agree. This is too powerful for what I had in mind. I wanted them weaker magically (but with enough flavor in the mages to still be interesting) with the best ranged units in the game.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Regarding the gunpowder weapons: the two guns are armor piercing for obvious reasons - bullets can pierce armor pretty easily, no bullet-proof vests in the medieval world.

Modern bullets propelled by modern fast-burning powder can penetrate armour quite well. Medieval bullets, powered by slow burning black powder won't be nearly as effective. Black plate should probably be enough to stop them since some Gothic armour available at the end of the medieval era was bulletproof.<hr /></blockquote>OK. Maybe keep harquebuse damage at 18, but drop armor piercing. The high damage alone ought to be enough to let it penetrate most lesser armors, but black plate at protection 20+ would tend to protect fairly well.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Harquebuse ammunition is the same as the sling because the ammo size is about the same.

Are you counting the powder for the shots? <hr /></blockquote>I think most musketeers used a single powder horn (in the pre-cartridge days) to go with their musket balls, so I don't think this would be the limiting factor. Ammo in the game seems driven more by gameplay considerations than real world stats, so it comes down to the fact that I want the gunners to have more staying power than archers.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The repeating crossbow is based on an actual Chinese weapon - its bolts are smaller and so aren't armor-piercing and have shorter range, but it can rapid-fire like a medieval machine gun (Okay, its not quite that good).

You might want to compare the repeater to a shortbow for terms of how much damage they would do. The repeater is going to have a much smaller draw than a shortbow if it can be fired that quickly, so it would probably be less damage than 10. <hr /></blockquote>I originally was going to drop the damage to 8, which is probably the right idea. I don't want it too powerful.

[ February 04, 2004, 05:23: Message edited by: Simmy Sims ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Good post.

Set alchemist to #51*1(random element magic) + #52*1(random sorcery magic),kept the 120 cost,it would be ok AFAIK.

A lesser Version of the alchemy bonus is supported. Check the "Alchemist Stone"(Con.8 artifact) and indy alchemists. They have a 50% bonus IIRC.

Also, the precision penalty is not a big trouble in a decisive battle--even a shard missed far cry,still a great chance to hit someone,See "BANISHMENT".

The other method is set them--rocketeer-- "Fire archer", with a 40 range, you can put some poor commanders nearby to death in the first round and enjoy it without worry about friendly fire(they are out of ammo before your troops approach enemy archer squad).

[ February 05, 2004, 03:06: Message edited by: void ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by void:
Good post.

Set alchemist to #51*1(random element magic) + #52*1(random sorcery magic),kept the 120 cost,it would be ok AFAIK.

A lesser Version of the alchemy bonus is supported. Check the "Alchemist Stone"(Con.8 artifact) and indy alchemists. They have a 50% bonus IIRC.

That's good to know. I'm not sure if its possible now to give an item power to a unit without the item, but maybe in the future.

Your idea about the alchemist is good, too - it adds more versatility while removing the possibility of getting skill level 2. That's what I was looking for.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

*Scratches head* How long would it take for these guys to reload their guns? Saw a show on Discovery that mentioned that trained crossbowyers were lucky to get two shots a minute since reloading took so long.

I'm also confused by the low accuracy of these weapons. Since there's no "Hold and Fire" command they might well be more dangerous to your own troops than any other archer unit in the game.

Wasn't the repeating crossbow only good for seven shots? It oughto be treated as a real crossbow though rather than a shortbow. It wasn't that much faster or weaker than a european "light" crossbow. I say give it one attack a turn + armor piercing but smaller ammunition.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by Wauthan:
*Scratches head* How long would it take for these guys to reload their guns? Saw a show on Discovery that mentioned that trained crossbowyers were lucky to get two shots a minute since reloading took so long.

I'm also confused by the low accuracy of these weapons. Since there's no "Hold and Fire" command they might well be more dangerous to your own troops than any other archer unit in the game.

Wasn't the repeating crossbow only good for seven shots? It oughto be treated as a real crossbow though rather than a shortbow. It wasn't that much faster or weaker than a european "light" crossbow. I say give it one attack a turn + armor piercing but smaller ammunition.

OK, you inspired me to do some quick research. The matchlock harquebuse is supposed to have had a rate of fire of 2 / minute, same as the crossbow. So I really ought to give it the same RoF as the crossbow.

As for accuracy, I can't find anything indicating that these weapons were any less accurate than other weapons. Their effective range was much less than the bow or crossbow, though. Also, another game source inducates that guns were about as effective against heavy armor as against light. Try these stats, then:

Harquebuse
Damage 14
Armor-Piercing
Rate of Fire 1 / 2 Rounds
Range 20
Precision 0
Ammunition 12

Pistol
Damage 10
Armor Piercing
Rate of Fire 1 (no reloading involved)
Range 15
Precision -1
Ammunition 2

I found a page on the chu-ko-nu (the actual Chinese repeating crossbow). Rate of fire was supposedly 1 per SECOND, with a magazine holding 10 bolts and an effective range of 50-75 yards. The chu-ko-nu was a light crossbow (not otherwise represented in the game) and so should probably have damage characteristic of a shortbow.

Repeating Crossbow
Damage 8
Armor Piercing
3 shots / round
Range 15
Precision +6
Ammunition 3

Note: I'm assuming 3 actual shots per "shot", thus the high precision (I'm assuming one in three will actually hit something) and low ammunition (enough for one volley).

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Excellent research and ideas Mr Sims. It seems like a very interesting mod for T'ien Ch'i. One that will be very unusual to play with.

These guys will be very "fire then melee" types with the low ammo but high damage. Makes them very versatile compared to the "fire or melee" as is the case now. I like your interpretation of many-bolts-as-one since this makes the Cho-Ko-Nu units a lot less of a threat compared to multiple attacks each turn.

Might I suggest giving this faction a forced drain and order scale to reflect its focus on research and discipline rather then magic?

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i Gunpowder Theme idea

Quote:

Originally posted by Wauthan:
Excellent research and ideas Mr Sims. It seems like a very interesting mod for T'ien Ch'i. One that will be very unusual to play with.

These guys will be very "fire then melee" types with the low ammo but high damage. Makes them very versatile compared to the "fire or melee" as is the case now. I like your interpretation of many-bolts-as-one since this makes the Cho-Ko-Nu units a lot less of a threat compared to multiple attacks each turn.

Might I suggest giving this faction a forced drain and order scale to reflect its focus on research and discipline rather then magic?

Thanks. For the scales, I was thinking forced Drain 2 and Misfortune 1 (the latter because of the bad luck created by turning their back on their traditions). I could see this theme using Order or Turmoil (technological change = turmoil, discipline = order).