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Some questions on demo walkthrough

Hello, I'm currently playing the demo walkthrough game, about 30 turns or so in. (Ie: I'm past the walkthrough part).

Some questions:

1) I discovered the Golden Naga god all by its lonesome in a province to the southeast, and attacked with my (Gode) Prophet, a Herse commander and about 15-20 javeliners, huskarls, etc. It seems as though my commanders never showed up at the battle, just the squad. (If the commanders showed up, they weren't in their normal positions). After my giants pounded on the naga to maybe half strength, they all fled despite zero casualties. Then, next turn I rounded up my troops and re-attacked, with the same results: no apparent commanders, and my troops retreated after getting the Naga 1/3 down on health, with no losses on either side. Any explanations?

2) Is there any way for me to reasonably quickly build up an underwater-capable force to try to take some of the water provinces. My pretender is water-8/earth-4, so I'd think that should a fairly reasonable thing, but I don't see many spells that will help. Is Nifelheim (is that the giants race's name?) a bad one to play for any underwater capability, or do I have the wrong set of magic skills? (Or am I just missing the possibilities?)

3) How many mage-type units is a good amount to dedicate to research, rituals/summoning, and gem site searching? At about 30 turns in, if I dedicate all my mages to research, I get about 32 res/turn. Is that good or bad? I'd like more, so use for summons and searching as well, but the mages, costing 250 each, will have a very large upkeep, won't they? Site searching seems to be a painfully slow process, particularly like in my case, where I'm using my Pretender to lead a fighting force.

4) What controls the number of provinces a unit can move in a turn? Sometimes, it seems my 2-move unit can move 2 provinces to get to certain ones, but only 1 province in another direction. Do nearby (but not blocking) enemy provinces matter for this? In another case, I noted one of my priests was able to move 2 provinces, while another priest could only move 1 province. Neither had any troops assigned, and neither was near any enemy provinces.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

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Originally posted by LintMan:
[QB]
2)Is Nifelheim (is that the giants race's name?) a bad one to play for any underwater capability, or do I have the wrong set of magic skills? (Or am I just missing the possibilities?)

Take a look at the stats on a Niefel Jarl. They have water magic, so they can lead troops into the water along with themselves. They can bring themselves with one water skill, plus one other troop for each additional point in water magic. Niefel Jarls are very tough, and Niefel giants are also. They should be able to take water provinces in sufficient numbers.

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3) At about 30 turns in, if I dedicate all my mages to research, I get about 32 res/turn. Is that good or bad? I'd like more, so use for summons and searching as well, but the mages, costing 250 each, will have a very large upkeep, won't they?

That's quite low. I would probably try to have over 150 research points by that point. One of Niefelheim's major weaknesses is that they have expensive non-sacred mages. The way around this is to use mages recruited in other provinces for your research. Sages, which can be recruited at a library are extremely effective for this, but most otther independent mages will be more cost effective than Gyga and Skratti.

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Site searching seems to be a painfully slow process, particularly like in my case, where I'm using my Pretender to lead a fighting force.

There are several low-level spells that can be used to search for magic sites. Thaumaturgy 2 contains the spells for every magic path other than astral, death, and water. These spells all require two magic in a particular path to cast, but will find everuy magic site of a particular type in a given province. Conjuration contains dark knowledge for death magic, which requires a death 1 mage. Conjuration also contains voice of aspu for water, and voice of tiamat for searching for all elemental sites in a water province. Conjuration 5 (not available in the demo) has Acashic record, which is quite expensive at 25 astral pearls, and requires 3 astral skill, but finds every magic site in a given province. Evocatin magic contains arcane probing, which is an astral 1 spell for searching for all astral sites in a given province. Evocation level 9 also contains strands of arcane power, which searches for magic sites as part of its abilities.

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4) What controls the number of provinces a unit can move in a turn?

You can only move one province into enemy territory, unless the commander and all his troops are flying. Other than that, mountains, forests, and other difficult terrain reduces troop movement to 1, unless all units in the group have the "survival" trait for that type of terrain.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

Quote:

Originally posted by LintMan:
1) I discovered the Golden Naga god all by its lonesome in a province to the southeast, and attacked with my (Gode) Prophet, a Herse commander and about 15-20 javeliners, huskarls, etc. It seems as though my commanders never showed up at the battle, just the squad. (If the commanders showed up, they weren't in their normal positions). After my giants pounded on the naga to maybe half strength, they all fled despite zero casualties. Then, next turn I rounded up my troops and re-attacked, with the same results: no apparent commanders, and my troops retreated after getting the Naga 1/3 down on health, with no losses on either side. Any explanations?

I can't explain why the commanders didn't appear to come to the party, but I think I know why your troops eventually routed even though they had no casualties - the Golden Naga has, I believe, the special ability of Awe, which increases the chances that troops attacking her will retreat.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

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Nore sure about this. Sounds like you're not moving your commanders into the battle, since I can't think of any other explanation for it. Unless it's a bug I'm not aware of.

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2) Is there any way for me to reasonably quickly build up an underwater-capable force to try to take some of the water provinces. My pretender is water-8/earth-4, so I'd think that should a fairly reasonable thing, but I don't see many spells that will help. Is Nifelheim (is that the giants race's name?) a bad one to play for any underwater capability, or do I have the wrong set of magic skills? (Or am I just missing the possibilities?)

I believe water mages can take a certain number of units with them into the water automatically. Try just giving your pretender an army and walking him into the water.

Or, grab the magic items list off of Arryn's website and look for items that grant waterbreathing:

http://www.bl23c.com/arryn/index.htm

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3) How many mage-type units is a good amount to dedicate to research, rituals/summoning, and gem site searching? At about 30 turns in, if I dedicate all my mages to research, I get about 32 res/turn. Is that good or bad? I'd like more, so use for summons and searching as well, but the mages, costing 250 each, will have a very large upkeep, won't they? Site searching seems to be a painfully slow process, particularly like in my case, where I'm using my Pretender to lead a fighting force.

32 research a turn isn't good at all. Sounds like you need to recruit more mages.

And upkeep is based on unit size, not cost. Hence, mages are cheap - at least in that respect.

And there are spells for pretty much every type of magic that can search provinces for sites from a distance. Optionally, get some mages other than your pretender out there searching for sites. Again, recruit more mages.

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4) What controls the number of provinces a unit can move in a turn? Sometimes, it seems my 2-move unit can move 2 provinces to get to certain ones, but only 1 province in another direction. Do nearby (but not blocking) enemy provinces matter for this? In another case, I noted one of my priests was able to move 2 provinces, while another priest could only move 1 province. Neither had any troops assigned, and neither was near any enemy provinces.

Terrain type affects movement. Mountains, forrests, swamp, etc. = more difficult to move through than plains. Flying units can, of course, ignore this, as do units with "forrest survival", "swamp survival", etc. in their respective terrain types.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

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Originally posted by fahdiz:
I can't explain why the commanders didn't appear to come to the party, but I think I know why your troops eventually routed even though they had no casualties - the Golden Naga has, I believe, the special ability of Awe, which increases the chances that troops attacking her will retreat.

Awe causes units to need a morale check to attack the unit with awe. Fear is an aura effect that affects units in an area of effect around the unit.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

Quote:

Originally posted by Sindai:
[QB]And upkeep is based on unit size, not cost. Hence, mages are cheap - at least in that respect.

Size has no effect on upkeep. Size has an effect on supplies consumed. Upkeep is 1/15th of the purchase cost of the unit, and 1/30th of the cost for sacred units.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

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Originally posted by LintMan:
Hello, I'm currently playing the demo walkthrough game, about 30 turns or so in. (Ie: I'm past the walkthrough part).
...My pretender is water-8/earth-4, so I'd think that should a fairly reasonable thing, but I don't see many spells that will help. Is Nifelheim (is that the giants race's name?) a bad one to play for any underwater capability, or do I have the wrong set of magic skills?

Just to clarify - if you're playing the walkthrough game that you downloaded, you should be playing Jotunheim default theme, not the Niefelheim theme. So you will not have access to Niefel Jarls.

Your pretender has water 8, so he should be able to bring water magic skill * 2 size points of troops with him underwater. Since giants are size 4 that limits him to 4 giants. Your troops will also perform poorly underwater.

The best way to take underwater provinces is to find land provinces that let you recruit amphibious units like Ichtyids. Then take those units and capture a single sea province. You can then start recruiting Tritons or whatever is in that sea province, and go from there.

As far as commanders not showing up, are they simply so far towards the back that you can't see them? Zoom the map out with the arrow keys when you're in the battle.

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

Thanks everyone for all the answers/tips!

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Originally posted by ceremony:
Just to clarify - if you're playing the walkthrough game that you downloaded, you should be playing Jotunheim default theme, not the Niefelheim theme. So you will not have access to Niefel Jarls.

Yes, Jotunheim - I got the names mixed up, after I noticed the "Son of Niefel"/Niefelheim connection. Sorry about that!

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Your pretender has water 8, so he should be able to bring water magic skill * 2 size points of troops with him underwater. Since giants are size 4 that limits him to 4 giants. Your troops will also perform poorly underwater.

The best way to take underwater provinces is to find land provinces that let you recruit amphibious units like Ichtyids. Then take those units and capture a single sea province. You can then start recruiting Tritons or whatever is in that sea province, and go from there.

Ah, OK! I didn't realize that water magic skill automatically granted some amount of underwater breathing. I was looking for some spells, but this is better. Cool.

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As far as commanders not showing up, are they simply so far towards the back that you can't see them? Zoom the map out with the arrow keys when you're in the battle.

I think I did scroll all around the map looking for them, but it's possible I missed them or didn't send both when I thought I did, or something. Oh, well. I'll pay more attention next time for sure.

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That's quite low. I would probably try to have over 150 research points by that point. One of Niefelheim's major weaknesses is that they have expensive non-sacred mages. The way around this is to use mages recruited in other provinces for your research. Sages, which can be recruited at a library are extremely effective for this, but most otther independent mages will be more cost effective than Gyga and Skratti.

As a follow-up question to this:
Do you (and/or anyone else that cares to reply) dedicate those research mages to just research, and have dedicated others for site search, spells/summoning, and item production? Or do you shift divert some of your researchers to those other tasks on occasion?

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You can only move one province into enemy territory, unless the commander and all his troops are flying. Other than that, mountains, forests, and other difficult terrain reduces troop movement to 1, unless all units in the group have the "survival" trait for that type of terrain.

Aha! It must have been the terrain type that was slowing me down in some places; I hadn't realized that it was a movement factor.

Thanks a lot, everyone!

Re: Some questions on demo walkthrough

Quote:

Originally posted by LintMan:
As a follow-up question to this:
Do you (and/or anyone else that cares to reply) dedicate those research mages to just research, and have dedicated others for site search, spells/summoning, and item production? Or do you shift divert some of your researchers to those other tasks on occasion?

I tend dedicated a few mages to site searching, and a few to other spells. It's often most cost effective to use your cheapest mages as researchers, as they are often not capable of casting very many rituals and mage time is expensive. If I need a few mages for some other reason for a turn or two though I will take them off of research duty. Taking a magic scale of +1 or +2 also helps a great deal with the default theme of Jotunheim, as the Vaetti hags are the cheapest mages in the game and with magic +2 they have 5 research points per turn.