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-   -   OT: US civil liberties under attack again! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=21156)

PvK October 4th, 2004 04:23 PM
OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
Quote:
Subject: Urgent Action Alert: Guard Civil Liberties in 9/11
Legislation
From: League of Women Voters of the United States
Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:41:05 -0400 (EDT)

URGE CONGRESS TO GUARD CIVIL LIBERTIES IN 9/11 LEGISLATION!


Both houses of Congress are currently considering legislation to
overhaul the organization of U.S. intelligence operations based upon
the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission. The Version of this
legislation introduced in the House as H.R. 10 raises serious concerns
about civil liberties. It is vitally important to maintain the checks
and balances of government.

H.R. 10 greatly expands the reach of law enforcement, going beyond the
recommendations of the 9/11 Commission and threatening civil
liberties.
It is essential that we protect basic civil liberties as the nation
seeks to guard against terrorism and other threats to national
security. H.R. 10 in its present form fails to do so.

Instead the legislation includes law enforcement powers not called for
by the Commission but included in "Patriot Act 2" and other
similar proposals. One provision of the legislation would eliminate
basic judicial review over unfair, arbitrary deportations of
immigrants. Another would broaden the definition of “material
support” so that an individual who associates with a suspected
terrorist group would be subject to indictment, even if that
individual did not engage in any terrorist activities or provide funds
for terrorist acts. Finally, H.R. 10 as currently drafted, would
indirectly create a national identification card. It is critical that
provisions such as these be debated openly, not rushed through at the
end of the congressional session.

The Collins-Lieberman bill, S. 2845, the National Intelligence Reform
Act of 2004, currently being debated on the floor of the Senate, has
the support of many members of the 9/11 Commission. However, the
House Version does not share that support because of the additional
measures included in the bill that were not based upon the
Commission’s recommendations, but that would instead expand the
government’s investigative and prosecutorial powers. At this time,
five committees in the House are reviewing H.R. 10, so now is the time
to ask your Representatives to keep civil liberties in mind!

Take action today to protect our civil liberties! To send your
message to Congress now, go to:
http://capwiz.com/lwv/utr/1/IWBSDWKQES/DNRLDWKQMD/

ACTION NEEDED

1. Contact Congress by phone and by e-mail, and urge your
representative to protect civil liberties and oppose H.R. 10. Phone
calls can be made through the Capitol Hill switchboard at
202-224-3121.
To send an instant message to your representative now, go to
http://capwiz.com/lwv/utr/1/IWBSDWKQES/GKDGDWKQMF/ or
www.interaction.lwv.org.

2. Forward this e-mail alert to other concerned citizens—your
grassroots network, your friends and co-workers. Ask them to take
action today to oppose this legislation that threatens civil
liberties.

BACKGROUND

To read H.R. 10 click here:
http://capwiz.com/lwv/utr/1/IWBSDWKQES/NOFJDWKQMG/

Baron Munchausen October 5th, 2004 12:29 AM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
I wasn't aware that we had any 'civil liberties' left. You do know that a huge number of provisions in the Patriot Act and 'supplements' (Patriot II broken up into small segments so it could be snuck through Congress) are officially secret? They've passed all sorts of crazy laws that the public would never accept if they knew about them, but made it illegal to report them so the public doesn't know and so doesn't protest. The ACLU is currently fighting at least one lawsuit over one of these provisions and had to get the judge to approve before it could even talk about having filed the lawsuit. Something to do with 'national security letters' (search warrants without a judge's approval) but the details cannot be discussed because the law itself forbids publicity.

PvK October 5th, 2004 12:45 AM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
It's long overdue that this stuff got explained to the masses... and the people responsible for such "laws", duly punished.

PvK

Atrocities October 5th, 2004 06:42 AM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
I want to share with you an interesting read that I hope stirs some thought. I agree that the less freedoms we have have the more likely we will not remain free. In fact there is the belief that the more our nations grows, the less freedoms we will have. Also a mathmatican, I forget his name, has spoken about the effects of population on freedom and how our dwindling resources will effect our future.

Any ways enjoy.

Quote:
It's a funny thing about people and disasters, the first to die always do so willingly. I read once a theory about people who are attracted to danger like a moth to a flame. During a hurricane watch you can see them gather along the beach, during a Volcano eruption you can find them standing near the lava flows. It’s in our blood to be stupid I guess. To defy common sense and ignore the obvious. Some people, that is most people, are like moths, attracted to that light that kills them. They go willingly, almost elated by the experience right to their deaths. During the onset war many fine young men join up in order to seek glory but find hell instead. Time after time this has been proven true. Today I see on the news that a volcano is about to erupt and what do people do, they load up the car and drive to within seven miles of this active volcano and camp. If the mountain were to blow, I find myself praying that God considers these folks our human sacrifice to him and chooses to leave the rest of us alone. I mean why are people so stupid? Why do we always follow the light? It is a simple question with a simple answer really. We are blind to our own stupidly, we allow rational thought to be quelled by our desire to see the greener grass on the other side of the hill. We are so hypnotized by the prospect of getting more for less that we blindly give up the very things in our lives that mean more than gold or God, our freedom. In most cases that mistake costs us our lives, but for some, it cost even more.

When someone stand upon a soapbox or podium and says onto the world, “Its ok to give up your rights. It’s perfectly acceptable to allow us to degrade your freedoms, to impose laws that limit your privacy and ability to live unencumbered by restrictive measures. Its your duty to give up your freedom in order to be free” That is when we must all stop and ask ourselves who is this man? What would are his objective and goals? And most importantly, why is he asking me to give up my freedom? We should never forget, but we always do, that the ones that say its ok to limit or advocate our liberties so that we can be safe and or freer are often, more than not, the same individuals who would become our masters. We do it everyday, every time one of uses a credit card we sign away a little bit of our future. Many of us, myself included, have often, very willing, handed over a freedom or liberty without ever having considered the long-term effects of doing so. It is a sad thing to know that, even now, we have fewer freedoms than we did twenty years ago, and in twenty years from now we will have even less.

The future, regardless of election out comes, is a bleakly depressing one in a soylent green kind of way. With gas prices are predicted to hit, and or exceed, $4.00 a gallon by this time next year. The fact that the Colorado River is drying up coupled with ongoing bizarre and often catastrophic weather events are changing the very face of our planet both in human terms and global terms. The deforestation of the rain forests, the wholesale slaughter of many species of animals such as the elephant, rhino, tigers and more around the world go on while we all ignore it and quietly accept it. Let us not forget the effects of global warming and our increasingly changing climates. The time has come for us to realize that we have passed the point of no return. Our population growth and consumption of resources have surpassed our ability, and this planets, to supply them.

As resources, first oil, then water, and ultimately food, become harder and harder to afford do the increased demand and dwindling supply, more and more people are going to fall into the dark pit of despair and turn toward any means available to them in order to survive. In most cases that would mean violence.

The only way to stem this tide of eventual chaos is to first deny it is happening, which we are now doing. Refuse to acknowledge it, quiet those who are sounding the alert first by calling them nuts, then by controlling them through laws that restrict freedom of speech, which our elected official are now preparing to do. Secondly, as people begin to realize that the problem is real, and that starvation is an imminent reality, would be to control them through military means and martial law. When you can no longer hide the truth, you must then control it. When you can no longer control the truth, then you must control those who know it. When you are no longer able to control those who know the truth, then you must take control. What cannot be hidden must be destroyed. When the truth that we are facing a serious global cataclysm is realized, say in twenty to forty years from now, our ability, that is the effected working poor, will have already given up all of our rights, our freedoms, and quite possibly our ability to effect or demand change.

The rich will insulate themselves by passing laws that limit our freedoms, take our rights, and position us in such a way that when the time comes for action, we will not have the will, the ability, or the means to stand up and say enough is enough.

You may read this post and think to yourself that I am just a nut, a conspiracy theorist, a depressed man with no hope, or other things but really all you will be doing is continuing to ignore that which you know to be true. Like I said it is far easier to ignore a problem than it is to accept the reality that there is one. Most of you will go on saying to yourself anything so long as it is not "Hey he has a point."

It is always easier to ignore what is happening than it is to acknowledge it and take action.

Really it's ok, I have given up on humanity's ability, that is my fellow man, willingness to consider that what we have now is far better than what we will have in the future. I am resized to the fact that no one will do anything because no one wants to acknowledge that there is a growing problem.

So long as the herd is oblivious to the slaughterhouse, we can go on killing them one at a time. It has always been this way, and it will always be this way.

So I say, enjoy what you have now, waste the water, waste the gas, waste food, and keep on living the illusion that everything is going to keep going on like this forever.

My great grandfather road a horse, my grandfather and father drove cars, I drive a car as will my son, but my grandson will ride a horse.

Thanks for reading.

Gandalf Parker October 5th, 2004 10:19 AM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 

Most of my newsGroups are tech Groups. Often it comes up how dismaying it is to see technology progress too fast for us techies to keep up with it. Depressing threads.

I tell them that if they wish to celebrate the age they live in, consider food. We live at the peak of the food age. Any meal we eat is made up of things which, at one time, was the entire diet of some group of people who thrilled at a rare bit of something else. A meal might have 3 or 4 dishes and each of those made up of a dozen things from all over the world.

New foods are unlikely to be discovered. Bananas as you know them are likely to disappear within 10 years, foods and drinks removed from the market for various reasons as each one becomes the newest "most harmful" choice. Foods which are the most damaging to the environment will be controlled by laws or prices. Beef and Wheat are highest on those lists, to be replaced by goat and soybeans.

Enjoy your meals because from here on its pretty much downhill.

Renegade 13 October 5th, 2004 11:52 AM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
Quote:
Gandalf Parker said:

foods and drinks removed from the market for various reasons as each one becomes the newest "most harmful" choice. Foods which are the most damaging to the environment will be controlled by laws or prices. Beef and Wheat are highest on those lists, to be replaced by goat and soybeans.
Speaking as the son of a cattle rancher, I can tell you right now that the beef we produce is not unhealthy in the least. As with all things, if you eat too much meat, perhaps you will gain weight due to fat content, but that can be said of many things. Beef in and of itself is not bad at all for you. At least, before it goes to the feedlots I know it is, I'm not sure what they do to the meat before the animals are slaughtered and butchered.

Gandalf Parker October 5th, 2004 02:20 PM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
Quote:
Renegade 13 said:
Quote:
Gandalf Parker said:

foods and drinks removed from the market for various reasons as each one becomes the newest "most harmful" choice. Foods which are the most damaging to the environment will be controlled by laws or prices. Beef and Wheat are highest on those lists, to be replaced by goat and soybeans.
Speaking as the son of a cattle rancher, I can tell you right now that the beef we produce is not unhealthy in the least. As with all things, if you eat too much meat, perhaps you will gain weight due to fat content, but that can be said of many things. Beef in and of itself is not bad at all for you. At least, before it goes to the feedlots I know it is, I'm not sure what they do to the meat before the animals are slaughtered and butchered.
I meant those to be seperate things that would happen. I dont agree that beef is unhealthy. Im as much a carnivore as my wife is a vegetarian (both fairly extreme). To me a good meal includes the 5 basic food animals (beef, pork, foul, fish, mutton). I am the LAST person to jump on the "unhealthy meat" thing.

But some foods are bad for the environment. As much as I love beef (and REAL veal when I can get it instead of the fake crap in stores) I do have to acknowledge that its not an efficient meat. In terms of the use of the land, water, more land and water for the necessary feeds; it produces very little in return. We use everything a cow produces but it still doesnt balance the books and can be replaced by other more efficient animals. Also much of the encroachment of man into wilderness areas is due to cattle and it would not happen to that extent with any other meat crop. Wheat is also a rather obnoxious and damaging crop in its useage of land.

There are many SciFi books which bring it up because anyone who studies such reports knows that if we dont fix the population growth problem and some shortages, that changes will have to be made and those are fairly high on the list. I detriggefinetly do not plan to voluntarily give up anything in my diet.

Gandalf Parker October 5th, 2004 02:32 PM
Re: OT: US civil liberties under attack again!
 
Quote:
Renegade 13 said:
Speaking as the son of a cattle rancher, I can tell you right now that the beef we produce is not unhealthy in the least. As with all things, if you eat too much meat, perhaps you will gain weight due to fat content, but that can be said of many things. Beef in and of itself is not bad at all for you.
As a seperate response I totally agree with you. I think the new healthy diets are just people learning to eat correctly. Herbivore, omnivore and carnivore which seem to be referred to presently as vegan, vegetarian, and american.

The vegans say you can live on fruit, vegetables and water which was argued for a long time but then they added things like "5 or 6 small meals a day and lots of exercise". Decades ago in school I learned that herbivores diet was not as efficient and they had to eat all day to sustain themselves. No problem, they are figuring it out.

The vegetarians say fish, fowl, fruits, vegetables, milk eggs. 3 meals a day and light exercise. Very ittle red meat. OK thats basic omnivore rules. The basic habits that sustain rats or bears or apes. Pretty much what Man was expected to be.

Carnivores eat one big meal. Once a day or less. They have little physical activity. Some roughage at other times of the day (in other words plants make ok snacks).

Health problems IMHO are from people trying to mix and match. Its difficult to try and mix the meal arrangments with the exercise arrangments with the food arrangments from different Groups.
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