Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

I'm still quite new to the MP scene, but I've noticed in several of the games, including some I am not in, that there seems to be a lot of anti-Agartha opinions out there, at least EA and MA. I am a big fan of the nations concept, and LA Agartha was the first nation I won with in Dom3 as an SP game. EA and MA at least, seem to be considered "weak" or "easy to rush" in MP games.

Is it the low combat skills of the Pale Ones? The lack of harder-hitting weapons of the MA human infantry? The chronic old age problems of the MA Golem Crafters? No missle weapons for MA? A combination of things?

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

I just got whomped in an MP with EA. Granted I'm quite new to MP, so you may get different views from someone who understands MP combat strategy. There seem to be four problems with them. First, low attack/defense on most units. Second, a lack of useful combat mages. The good ones are 400gp (though they are really nice: E3,H3, with 1 D,F,W, and a random EDFW), and your only other option is an E1 guy with a random pick and low research for 120. Third, your good troops are expensive both in gold and resources. And finally, the opening army is garbage, so you really need an awake pretender for early expansion.

What this translates to is a nation that needs an awake pretender, a strong bless to survive combat *and* strong income scales to get enough decent troops and mages to not be left behind in the arms race. Tall order.

I have heard about strategies built around EA Aggy's other combat option - trogs - but I haven't tried it.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

That about sums it up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

For EA the difficulty to do damage with most troops makes expanding hard, and their sacreds really don't measure up to so many of the other superior EA ones. If they can survive early game and diversify their magic, they can do fine, but that's true of any nation. Their saving grace early game tends to be the summon magma children spell.

MA has more a problem of extremely limited options. Almost all of their troops very similar and non-ranged, very limited randoms. Their main strength is the mid-level sacred golem summon that can be very cost effective with the right bless.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

LA Agartha is a good, strong nation.

EA & MA are considered 'weak' but they are my personal favourite nations to play in SP.

They are considered weak because they can't hit the side of a barn, no missile weapons, old age problems, no 'free' points (they should be given heat scale for free points btw) and they are very, very slow to get going.

All in all its no wonder they became extinct and they seemed doomed to repeat this in MP game time and time again.

Still having said all that I really, really like Agartha. They make me go ahhhh...

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

Troglodytes. Trampling dominates the early game anyway.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

Ya, and Magma Children hit automatically. So do Ice Brands and Fire Brands given to their giant commanders...

Their strength can also hinge a lot on whether they start next to uncontested seas.

IMO they are mainly different rather than weak, which I expect leads many players to get confused and give up before figuring out what they do well.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

I won a 14-player game as EA Agartha (over on the qt3 forums, not here). I was lucky in terms of map position, and I was very active with diplomacy. That combination got me through the early game without being rushed.

I had a sleeping pretender (a rainbow druid, even, with F4 and N8 being relevant to blessing the troops). Expansion was pretty easy, with a typical expansion team having 2 Ancient Oracles + ~15 Ancient Ones. I placed everyone all the way in back, scripted the troops to guard commander and the mages to divine bless then smite.

Once you hit blade wind, you are a force in the EA world (as long as you have the luxury of avoiding certain opponents). Some of those "certain opponents" (for example, Abysia) become child's play once you research Destruction.

So I think it takes some skill and some (or a fair bit of) luck to survive to mid-game, but it can be done.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

Thanks for all the replies folks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This sums a lot of it's appeal up for me too. I love the whole concept of the nation. It's one of my favorites to play. It's up with my favorites like: MA and EA R'Lyeh, Yomi, and Lanka.

I'm taking MA Agartha in the Chinchilla game and am playing a vey succesful SP game with them. I've already destroyed Man and Tien'Chi and am in the process of slowly crushing Marignon.

LA Agartha definately seems to have learned from the sorrowful past. By the time Agartha hits the late age, it really has shed a lot of the earlier ages issues and even has crossbows and slow, but heavy cavalry.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

I've said it before, I say it now: I usually end up playing nations regarded as weak and underdog, but grow up liking them even more. It's like starting a DnD character from level one and playing to high teens. You hate it first, but if it survives, you know the options inside out. With any other nation you'd already overlooked several viable options, with Agartha you'd be dead if you did.

I don't have experience with other eras, but at least MA Agartha has to fight to keep up with the Joneses during the early game. Survive that, and get ready to rock. A hint from someone else - take a high death bless, and bladewind becomes a huge area of potentially missing limbs, eyes and other more vital parts.

Re: Lots of anti-Agartha opinions in MP?
 

I think Agartha is pretty much the classic turtling nation to be honest, at least EA and MA. You'll struggle against an early rush, but if you can keep the wolves from the door (diplomatically, militarily or by any means necessary http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) they can become strong in the mid to late game.

One advantage you can use with Agartha (not sure if anyone else has tried it) is to go amphibious. If you're in a game without any other water nations it's an easy way to mitigate against an early rush. By the time the other nations can get underwater in any reasonable force, you should be ready to come out guns blazing so to speak.