Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

I have a couple of questions I could find no answer to in the forums.

1. Is there a way to reload ammo in the tanks? I have tried ammo bunkers, depots, and all the assorted ammo carrying vehicles and have been unable to reload ammo in them. Thus far, the only thing I can reload (that I know of) is the rocket launchers, mortars, and infantry. Many times a tank will run out of main gun ammo, and become basically useless against other tanks. I've sat on unsuppressed ammo bunkers or munitions depots for 10 turns hoping to reload. It would be nice to be able to reload and get them back into the battle.Is there a way to do this that I have not yet figured out?

2. Scoring - I just completed a PBEM game with a friend. We have both been playing Steel Panthers since the 90's. The end result was a draw. It just does not add up. Here are the stats:

6/45 Meeting engagment: 65000 points per side.

German Score: 14508 Russian Score: 26887 (+12379 - Almost TWICE the points!)

Vehicles left Germany: 3 JagdTigers, 2 Panthers, 1 Halftrack, 1 Ostwind, 4 Wurfgerats (a total of 11 VEHICLES LEFT - ALL ROUTED!!)

Vehicles left Russia: 9 ZSU's (3 immobilized),12 Kosomelets (1 immobilized) 33 KV-85's (2 immobilized) 54 Vehicles - only 6 immobilized

Russia had less vehicles immobilized than the entire remaining German vehicle count.

Dead Germans 2533
Dead Russians 1494

1039 more dead Germans than Russians!!!

Not only that...all infantry was routed or pinned on the German side...he could move NO ONE!!!

I had at least 25 infantry units that I could still move, notwithstanding 48 vehicles still operable.

I captured EVERY flag 10 turns before the ending turn (25 turns with an ending planned for 35 turns)

How in the hell can that be a draw?? I would expect a minor victory for the Russians at the very least, in this case. We actually thought we (both my opponent and I) would see our first ever major victory in the game.

Could someone please explain this to me?

Jim

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

As far as I know you need AT LEAST twice the points to get a "Marginal Victory".

For a "Major Victory" you need at least 4 times the points of the enemy, but here I'm not quite sure...

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

Tank sitting still next to an ammo supply unit will reload ammo the same as any other unit.

Remember that an ammo supply unit will cater to only one unit at a time. Perhaps while your tank was sitting next to an ammo unit, there was also another unit needing resupply (eg. artillery piece) next to the ammo unit and the resupply went to that unit?

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

Most of the numbers that you gave have little to do with how the victory points are scored. Those are scored just from the following things:

1.) Held victory hexes at the end of the game add their value to the victory score
2.) Destroyed enemy units add their purchase cost to the victory score
3.) Damaged but not destroyed enemy units add one point to the victory score per every point of damage suffered

That's the only things you score victory points for. You do not score points for anything else, including:

- your remaining units (on or off the table)
- making enemy units retreat off the map
- making enemy units pinned, retreating or routed
- making enemy units immobilized (beyond the number of damage points caused)
- number of men killed

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

sit still , don't move, don't shoot and wait at least a couple of turns and if you have a number of other units all lined up expect to wait longer

I will ensure this is spelled out IN DETAIL in the game guide for the next release becasue at least once a year we have someone who has trouble with this

SEE "Battle Results Screen" UNDER THE TUTORIAL SECTION

........."When you finish the last turn (or possibly before, if you have already captured the objective hexes and destroyed the enemy HQ unit, and destroyed or routed 5-% or more of the enemy units) you will be presented with the Results screen (below ). Victory criteria are based completely on Victory hexes held at the end of the game, and the number of friendly and enemy units destroyed. A greater-than 8:1 margin is a “Decisive” victory. Between 8:1 and 2:1 is a “Marginal” Victory and if your result was between 2:1 and 1:2, the result will be a draw. Here, the score of 5331 to 1091which gives a Marginal Victory. These are, however, artifical lines. Many scenarios are simply victories or defeats where if you have more points at the end than the AI... "You win". "



So what's the problem ?? There's the score. You won but he did enough damage in return to prevent you from getting the victory you think you deserve. You're hung up on the general victory conditions and I WOULD expect this to be a problem for someone new to the game but anyone who's played "since the 90's" should know where a draw ends and a Marginal victory starts and you are 2,130 points away from a Marginal victory.




Don

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

It matters if the unit wishing re-supply is in the same hex or adjacent to the supply depot. I'm pretty sure units wishing re-suppy need to be in an adjacent hex. I think it's Ammo Carriers that need to be in the same hex as the supply depot. I never realy understood the rational between the two diferent methods. It's all very confusing, their is the Steel Panthers I,II, and III methods, which may or may not be the same as this game, plus their is WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2, which may or may not use the same mythod as the other. I guess it would be best to look in the manual, but looking for specific rule in there is very time consuming and impracticle during a game. I been trying to figure it out for years, but when I do figure it out, I don't remember it for very long. I guess it would help if I re-supplied my units every game, then I would get so much practice doing it, I would never forget it.

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

I have sat adjacent to a bunker, ammo carrier, or munitions depot for up to 10 turns without moving, both the tank and the ammo bunker unsurpressed, and they still did not reload. This is not something I tried in just one game, but over time. I have tried experimenting by physically being in the same hex, turning so the front of the vehicle points at the ammo bunker, the rear...I have been trying for the last 6 or 8 games to do this. If we cannot reload, then fine...I won't waste as many purchase points on the bunkers. I have not seen any advice yet that is not something I've tried. And Don, I vaguely remember reading about the 2.1 ratio for marginal victory back in the 90's, but like so many others, I didn't really get it that well. I've probably played well over 2000 games (all with the same friend) over that period. I guess I just did the ready, fire, aim routine and started playing without reading all of the documentation.

I sincerely appreciate the feedback, and if anyone else has any suggestions for the tank ammo reloads, I'll try them.

Jim

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

I know Arty and infrantry types load as expected.

To be truthfull,i can't even recall reloading a tank,in most cases they have plenty of AP ammo to last most battles,unless it's an IS-II which has only 18 rounds of ap.

It might be that they reload HE first???

Maybe you should do a test with a low AP load out tank(such as the IS-2) against masses of HT's only,and try reloading from maybe a variety of ammo assets.

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

"I have moved" is a pointer to a bad idea if you want to load ammo....

- you must be stationary for an entire turn (supplier and recipient)
- if you are a helicopter you must land to be resupplied
- you need to be in the adjacent hex (or one hex away from a bunker or dump, at half the resupply rate)
- the first unit in the internal list will be supplied first, from weapon 1 on up, ammo type 1 on up (HE being ammo type 1
- If the supplied unit is firing then you may not see any improvement..
- Special ammo does not get replaced (smoke dischargers and the free smoke rounds some units get on game start, VIRSS, CIWS etc). Sabot/APCR and HEAT are not special ammo, but are outside the normal ammo array (being a separate byte each assigned to weapon 1), so may load at the very end of all regular AP and HE ammo.
- ammo crates supply only the smaller warhead sizes (up to about 81mm mortars, some ATGMs)

Remember that the SP series cheat where an ammo bunker supplied an infinite number of customers is gone. If you park a crowd round an ammo supplier the supply clerk will start from the unit highest on his list, and the others are going to have to wait their turn. We now operate on one customer per supplier - but see below.

If you park several ammo units close together, then it may be that one customer unit is in an overlap hex of two of these and is also top of the list - so he will get a double supply, while everyone else crowded round them waits.

Who is top of the list? - usually it will be in purchase order, but if you have done cross-attaching then the A0..XX0 list is not reliable to determine that. Just don't crowd the ammo units with multiple customers and you will not have to worry, anyway.

Andy

Re: Game scoring Issues and Tank Ammo reloads
 

Read what Andy wrote above.

Then create a test battle against AI to see how it works:
1.) Create a battle where you are attacker
2.) Only purchase two tanks and two ammo trucks
3.) Deploy the ammo trucks a couple of hexes apart, and the tanks around five hexes away from them.
4.) Start the battle and have the tanks blast some random piece of terrain for a few rounds with Z-fire to consume ammunition.
5.) Make a note of the ammo situation on the tanks for the different weapons.
6.) Move the tanks so that they are next to the ammo trucks.
7.) Have everybody sit still for three turns.
8.) Check again the ammo situation in the tanks.