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SdKfz 251/17 Towing

I've attached a copy of the German KstN 1145(gp), a (TE)sW PzJ Zug (3 Gesch)(gp). (A German TOE for a 3 gun AT Plt).

If you look at the 3 gun section each one was allocated 3 x 7.5cm/7.62 PaK, 3 x 251/17 (2cm FlaK) and 1 x 251/1 for Ammo (or at least that's what is says).

Now the problem is how to replicate this in the game.

The problems are that although 251/17 could tow the PaK there would not have been enough room for the PaK's crew unless the crew also manned the 2cm Flak.

There aren't enough men to man both types of Weapon.

The KstN implies that the 251/1 was for ammo so if it was, and full it could not carry any men.

KstN courtesy of Sturmpanzer.com

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

This has made be look at some other KstN were the SdKfz 251/17 was used. All I've looked at so far follow a similar pattern were the number of men allocated is not enough to man all available weapons.

For instance the KstN 1114c (gp), PzGren Co c (gp) has a number of 251/17 allocated. In the sMG gruppe, (2 x HMG, 1 x 251/17, 11 men). In the PzB Zug, 4 x PzB 54 PzSchreck, 1 x 251/17, 10 men).

Manpower includes driver.

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

Simple, don't use the 251/17, use a stock 251. The 251/17 was generally a luftwaffe unit not widely available so IDK how that could be the standard towing vehicle for a PaK unit. If you can find info that indicates the 251/17 could carry it's normal crew a 2cm FlaK 38 plus the crew of a Pak in that modified hull I'll consider changing the carry capacity of the vehicle

Don

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/SdKfz-251_Hanomag.php

Quote:

This type, and all the test prototypes, covered around 500 vehicles, including 486 -according to some sources /17 and /21. Normal provision for each Panzerdivision was around twenty-one in the armored infantry battalion, one in the regimental engineer company and seven in the armored reconnaissance company.

Sd.Kfz. 251/17 - Schützenpanzerwagen (2 cm) : (244 built). Early machines had unmodified 251 Ausf C and D bodies, and the 20mm gun ahd only a 80° traverse. They were pioneered by the SS panzerdivision Grossdeutschland. But the main production type was the Luftwaffe-Flakausführung, with extended side made of folding panels. Even folded, the gun still had a 360° traverse. The 20mm KwK38 comprised a small turret and pedestal mounting. They were built on the Ausf C only and usually 4 FLAK vehicles were led by a command version, similar but without the gun but with a FU-10 radio and frame antenna, and two Mg.34 or 42 for close defence.

Later on the version evolved. Auto-Union A.G. of Chemnitz built a prototype (Ausf C) followed by perhaps a dozen or so hybrid vehicles (D type), with a completely open rear and reconstructed driver compartment. The type was also called Sd.Kfz.30 or 261. In late 1944, a late model with a standard D body was equipped with a Schwebelafette or "gliding cradle" in a boxlike construction. Production figures remains unknown, perhaps 15 in all which served on the eastern front by nobvember 1944. The 20mm existed in two types, the Army KwK 38 and the Luftwaffe FLAK-38 which had similar performances, although they were found unable to deal with the heavily protected Russian Ll-2 Sturmoviks.

......so it's seems extremely odd to me that these units would be assigned to tow ATG's

...........and for those really paying attention they will know that despite what this article says Grossdeutschland was NOT an SS division......it's been 70 years since WW2 ended and still junk info is repeated as 'fact"

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

Normally I like Tank Encyclopedia but referring to Grossdeutschland as an "SS Panzerdivision" is a heck of a weird mistake to make for an otherwise fairly well researched site.

I also concur that it makes no sense why these would be assigned to ATG units, unless we're talking late 1944 where everything that could drive was being converted to either anti-tank or anti-aircraft defense.

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

.....ah HA !.... someone WAS paying attention :) ( while I was editing )

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

MAYBE it's supposed to be this......

Sd.Kfz. 251/4 - Schützenpanzerwagen für Munition und Zubehör des leIG18. Gun-towing tractor, initially for use with the 7.5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18. Later used to tow the 50 mm Pak 38, 75 mm PaK 40 and 10.5 cm leFH 18 Light Field Howitzer

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

About the SdKFz251/17: The version portrayed ingame is the old one which was largely used as AA.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...f-C_FLAK38.png

The later version had a different layout and was supposed to be used as a platoon leader vehicle starting in late 1944. (One wonders how often this was achieved). I think that is the vehicle mentioned in that TOE.

http://a.modellversium.de/galerie/bi...14-3082834.jpg

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

That could be there was no date mentioned. It would be nice to see a actual photo of this version in action. There does seem to be more room for passengers although it would be a bit tight unless the vehicle crew was reduced from the older version but to make that work as a towing vehicle the game carry capacity would need to be 107. I suppose it's doable but I would like more info. Culver/Feist's "Schutzenpanzer" says the late version had a crew of 4.

The basic 251 has a carry cap of (1)13 so 4+6 ( the vehicle crew plus the gun crew-- the 107 requirement is for the crew + gun ) so with what seems a more compact gun mount in the later version it seems the added carry cap would not be wildly out of line.

Culver/Feist indicate the Luftwaffe crew was 6 so given the later version was 4 the 5 we have now would seem to be an average of the two

Don

Re: SdKfz 251 Towing

It may be that the photo we have for the SdKfz 251/1 PzB is , in fact a late model SdKFz251/17......still digging into that