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Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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85, 116 Fokker C.V - apparently used until 5/40. It had only one forward-firing MG (source: http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= ) According to http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=fokker-c-v it could also take "16 x 8 kg. of 4 x 25 kg. of 4 x 50 kg. bommen" Same for KNIL unit 105, although the quoted page lacks info about their service there. It's worth to add Fokker C.X since 1935 - a basic Dutch bomber in late 1930s. It was basically the same, but speed 317 km/h, bomb load 400 kg (8 x 50 kg or 4 x 100 kg) http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...okker-c-x-c-10 http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= From 11/35 they were also used by the KNIL. 90, 216 Fokker G.1A - should be just G.I - "The commonly used terms Fokker G-IA and Fokker G-IB are no authentic Fokker designations and in fact incorrect" - http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= According to the quoted page, they were put in service no earlier, than 7/39 (unit 216 starts at 1/37, before actual first flight). Also http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=fokker-g-1 says they were in service in "1939-1940" 91, 113 B-25h Mitchell, KNIL Mitchell - there's no info, that the Dutch used 75mm-armed B-25H, but KNIL used B-25C strafers instead, armed with some 6-8 .50 MGs, from some mid-43 - http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= A proper photo of KNIL B-25 is 346. 93, 94, 218, 219 Fokker T-5 - it was rather known as T.V (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_T.V). Same for Fokker T.VIIIW no. 92,220 Edit: according to http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...t-v-bomber-t-5 only two aircraft could carry maximum payload 4 x 300 kg. The rest could only carry 2 x 300 kg, or 4 x 50 kg and 2 x 100 kg, or 8 x 50 kg. Since it had a semi-automatic Solothurn 20 mm gun, and was initially conceived as a fighter-cruiser, maybe it should be also doubled as fighter-bomber? 95 B-25h Mitchell - the Dutch 320th RAF Sqdn in the UK used Mitchells already from around mid-43 (now 1/46). It should be renamed B-25C or D (a level bomber anyway). There is an article with photos of both Dutch aircraft in the UK, and with postwar markings: http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= In fact, a wartime icon should be British 991. 101 KNIL Mitchell - it has an own photo 346, or there are others:http://www.marsethistoria.nl/artikel...N5-151_600.jpg http://www.ozatwar.com/raaf/moth/p920742.jpg http://www.ozatwar.com/raaf/moth/p920744.jpg Maybe a better name would be KNIL B-25? (BTW: I'm not suggesting to change an icon, but according to http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= they were in plain Olive Drab, and had a flag on left wing only) 100 KNIL Martin 139 - first were used from 1/37 (now 6/39) - in 10/38 all were delivered http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=&limitstart=1 102 KNIL Catalina - delivered only in 9/41 http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=&limitstart=1 103,104 KNIL A-20/Boston - it seems from this page http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=&limitstart=1 that their career in KNIL was brief and without combat use - all were given away in 6/42 (Mitchells entered service instead). The photo for unit 104 with Dutch markings seems a fake. 106 KNIL Hawk P-36 - its name was Hawk 75A-7. According to http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=en&Itemid=546 armament was "one .50 inch and one .303 inch machine gun in the nose and two .303 inch machine guns in the wings; later changed to two .303 inch machine guns in the nose; bomb load of 2 x 50 lbs (23 kg)" (three bombs would be strange for a fighter anyway) During February 1942 the remaining Hawks were withdrawn from operational use (quoted page). 107 KNIL Buffalo - it seems, that they weren't known as Buffalo, but Brewster B.339 http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= 109 KNIL Kittyhawk - first used operationally in 4/44(?) http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=&limitstart=1 110 KNIL Hurricane - delivered to East Indies only in 2/42 (now 9/41). The last Hurricane was captured by the Japanese in March 42 (now 6/42). http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= 217 Fokker D.XXI - entered service from 8/38 only http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= As AOP aircraft, from 1/45 Austers were used http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= (the Kingfisher as Dutch AOP plane is doubtful, especially in Europe... before 1/45 maybe there should be British Austers?) If we have Catalina bombers, an interesting addition would be Dornier Do 24K http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= - they could carry up to 1500 kg bombs, and eg. bombed Davao in 12/41 with 500-pound bombs (notwithstanding, that probably none of the two flying boats ever supported troops in field). Edit: a great addition would be Douglas 8A-3N assault bomber http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...=douglas-8a-3n http://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?op...=1&limitstart= |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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--------------- AT guns: 12 20mm AT-Gun - I couldn't find info, that Dutch Army had 20 mm AT guns - all pages, especially http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...fantry-weapons write only about 47mm and obsolete 6 veld. 15 37mm AT-Gun - according to a book "Holland - Paraat!", the Dutch bought only one Pak-35/36 (and sure not in 1930), and it lost in competition to 47mm Bohler. Same for unit 262. -------------- Flak: 19 40mm Bofors AA - acquired only in summer 1939 (now 1/30) - http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ences-may-1940. 260 20mm AA-Gun - photo is German Flak, not Oerlikon (could be 17041, or here are some Dutch ones: http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...ikon-2-tl-no-1 ) Delivered only from 4/39 according to that page. Would need a change in formations. From 12/39 (?) there were used also 20mm Scotti-Isotta Fraschini 20/70, but the difference might be too negligible to be worth http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...hini-2-tl-no-2 ------------------------- MGs and infantry weapons: 25 M.18 No.1 HMGs - 7.7 M.18 No.1 (original Vickers) were still in use in 5/40 (now 12/35) - http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ht-machineguns Same for 345 M.18 No.1 HMG 275 M.18 No.1 AAMGs - I suggest to change it to M.25 AAMGs or Spandau AAMGs, which was a basic Dutch AAMG (ex-German Maxim MG.08): http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ht-machineguns http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...hwarzlose-m-08 Weapon 149 might be just renamed to 7.9mm M.25 AAMG Photo is Norwegian - here are some http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=483288&page=3 or I'll attach better ones. 401,412 MI M.23 HMG - Dutch pages don't mention such MG, and a photo is Swedish Colt I think it should be changed to standard M.08 Schwarzlose http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ht-machineguns http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...hwarzlose-m-08 28 Infantry Squad - since this is a LMG Section, maybe a better photo will be with Lewis LMG? - could be 32513 (if they are Dutch), or here is a nice photo: http://www.quartermastersection.com/.../1061/M20Lewis Great photos of Lewis alone are also here: http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...eur-lewis-m-20 411 Madsen LMG - photo is Lewis. Photos of Dutch Madsens are here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attach...leur-groep.jpg (from http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-...n-book-522673/ ) https://www.forgottenweapons.com/vin...he-long-grass/ 414 Johnson LMG - photo is Lewis. According however to Polish Wikipedia (basing upon article in Strzał 2/2005), only 4024 self-loading rifles Johnston were delivered to KNIL, but none of ordered LMGs, which were taken over by USMC - see also http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/joh...1-m1944-e.html 34 Tankbuks ATR - a lack of any mention about AT riles on pages devoted to 1940 campaign, especially http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...fantry-weapons suggests, that it was used by KNIL only (we have already KNIL unit 407) 234 Marksman - a photo is rather Spanish (and not too good for a single marksman). A better one for Dutch marksman is 27015. |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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Artillery: 39,58 75mm Field Gun, FG Trp - its weapon #33 75mm Krupp M06 has too long range 205 - it had 10.000 m after modification http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...eld-gun-7-veld so it seems it should be 200 in game terms. I think, that it's worth to rename weapon 33 to "75mm 7-veld M04" or "75mm 7-veld FG", as it is universally known in Holland (Dutch pages doesn't use M-year designation here, but they say it was introduced in 1904 - also http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=stuk-van-7-veld). 278,281 KNIL 75mm How, FH Trp - according to http://www.overvalwagen.com/KNILartillery.html and http://www.quartermastersection.com/...1265/75mmM1911, KNIL used 75 M.11 Krupp guns instead of 7-veld M.04, with slightly bigger range 10,600m (201?) 41 100mm Howitzer, 42 105mm Howitzer, 73,74 100/105mm FH Troop - according to http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...-gun-10-veld-2 the only significant gun of such caliber was modern 105mm Bofors 10-veld L/40 gun (M.27), not Schneider M.13. It should have longer range 16,200 m (206 in game terms?) Both photos seems not Bofors, nor Schneider. More photos are at: http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...uk-van-10-veld Book "Holland paraat!" mentions also 105mm leFH-18 delivered "sparsely" and "without aimining instruments or ammunition". 279 KNIL 105mm How and 284 KNIL105mmFH Trp - according to http://www.overvalwagen.com/KNILartillery.html and http://www.quartermastersection.com/...66/105mmM.1924 KNIL used shorter 105 mm L/22 Bofors M.24 with 10,500 m range (201?) 45 5in Naval Gun - precisely, Dutch destroyers used 120mm (4.7in) guns. 154,155 Static AA Gun - according to http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ences-may-1940 Vickers guns were used from 1935, and Skoda from around 1/40. Earlier some obsolete short-barrel AA guns were used. 289 57mm Inf-Gun - probably it should be basic infantry gun 6-veld, used also for anti-tank defence, although it is model 1894: http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...try-gun-6-veld http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=stuk-van-6-veld I suggest a name "57mm 6-veld gun" or "57mm 6-veld IG". The weapon #27 should be renamed accordingly (now there is 5 veld M80). Range is a bit too long (75) - it had 3500 m (70) There are good photos on the last page - probably appropriate also for 288 57mm Mtn Gun unit Maybe it should be duplicated also as AT gun, although it had a poor performance? 291 65mm Inf-Gun, 298 75mm Inf-Gun, 302 95mm Inf-Gun - there's no info on quoted pages, that the Dutch Army in Europe used any of these guns, only 6-veld. However, there's no info, if KNIL used infantry guns, and which... anyway, they might be marked as KNIL IG until they would be verified... 300 84mm Inf-Gun - there were indeed ancient 8-staal guns (not 8-veld - should be renamed) http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...ld-gun-8-staal , but it seems they were used as artillery, not infantry guns. 297 75mm Mtn Gun - a KNIL gun (Mtn guns are used only by KNIL formations) - should be 75 mm Bofors L/19 M.22 (http://www.overvalwagen.com/KNILartillery.html and http://www.quartermastersection.com/...1264/75mmM1924). The weapon is marked as 75mm 7 Veld M04, which was a field gun in fact - and should be renamed. Hogg's "twentieth-century artillery" gives range 9,300 m (http://www.quartermastersection.com/...1264/75mmM1924 even 10,500 m, but it doesn't look very reliable source). 290 65mm Mtn Gun, 299 84mm Mtn Gun, 301 95mm Mtn Gun - there is no info on such KNIL mountain guns http://www.overvalwagen.com/KNILartillery.html, and 75 mm ones were available since 1/30 294 Vickers Tractor - photo is Italian FIAT OCI. It was small Belgian Vickers Utility tractor http://www.overvalwagen.com/tractors.html http://www.quartermastersection.com/...tilityBTractor Apparently they were used by KNIL only. 295 KNIL Limber - photo is an ordinary wagon |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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Compare: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=156167 |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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--------------- More about heavy artillery. According to http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...-mm-and-150-mm , it seems, that the Dutch had no "off-map" heavy arty at all - 120 mm howitzers of two old models had range up to 6100 m, 150 mm howitzers - up to 8675 m (Krupp). There were also ancient fortress guns 125 mm and 150 mm with better range 8,500m [HE 12,5 cm] and 8,800m [HE 15 cm], still not off-map: http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...-fortress-guns Moreover, according to http://www.overvalwagen.com/KNILartillery.html, KNIL had no artillery bigger, then 105 mm. Therefore, units 173, 176-178, 283, 284 with off-map heavy artillery troops seem redundant (105mm artillery would have to suffice). 174 120mm Staal FH - it was an ancient fortress gun, in fact 125 mm 12 lang staal Krupp - http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...-fortress-guns and http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...-12-lang-staal (photos). Range 8300 m - weapon #75 and its caliber should be corrected. Best icon seems 61 or 2121. 175 120mm Krupp FH - a better name might be 120mm 12lang FH, since there were two howitzers: Krupp and (better) Bofors. Range up to 6100 m: http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...-mm-and-150-mm http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...sers-van-12-cm Better icon is 2115 If we remove off-map 150mm howitzers, maybe an on-map one should be created? More photos are at http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...ser-15-lang-15 http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...ser-15-lang-17 As for 288 57mm Mtn Gun and 289 57mm Inf Gun (old 6-veld guns), I believe that icon 2111 with single tail would be better. 127 KNIL 8in NavGun - it might be only allied support, since the Netherlands had no 8in-gun cruisers. A KNIL 4.7in Nav Gun might be added, unless we assume, that unit 045 5in (4.7 in fact) Naval Gun is enough both for Europe and KNIL. BTW: the Dutch recognized naval arty in cm: 15 cm, 12 cm, 7,5 cm http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Guns.htm |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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From http://www.overvalwagen.com/tractors.html it seems, that ordinary Caterpillar tractors were also used from early 1930s(?) Apparently the Dutch army in Europe didn't use tracked artillery tractors - only 6x6 Trado for artillery (http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...he-trado-truck, more: http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?page=trado-truck), 4x2(?) Fords or Chevrolets with PAG body for AT artillery (on a photo 30015) and agricultural tractors (book "Holland paraat!"). ---------------- Armoured vehicles: 52 Panserwagen M36 - a photo is Lithuanian car, differing in camo and details (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nian_L-181.jpg). A photo of a Dutch M36 is 30055 (used for M38), or here: http://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/p/pr...erk_l181_3.jpg 53 Panserwagen M38 - a photo 30055 is in fact M36. Previous 30055 (from 2001) was M38. Several good photos are here https://www.landsverk-m38.nl/images/...tie%20NIMH.jpg https://www.landsverk-m38.nl/M38_eng_photo.htm https://www.landsverk-m38.nl/M38_eng_production.htm Mixed photos are also here http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...--pantserwagen 55 M39 Van Doorne - AFAIK it wasn't known as Van Doorne, only DAF, or Pantrado - http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...type-landsverk https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAF_M39 80 Rolls Royce A/C - there were no RR AC used in the Netherlands in early 1930s, and AFAIK none exported apart from British dominions - Osprey New Vanguard 189 doesn't confirm it either. A Russian book from Bronekollektsya series (5/99) about armoured vehicles of small European countries claims only, that there was a single Ehrhardt truck armoured by the Dutch and used until mid-30s (apparently not a German Ehrhardt armoured car). There are also mentioned eight GMC trucks and three Morris 6x4 armoured by the Dutch in 1929 and 1932, armed with Lewis guns and used for police duties - but no details or pictures are given. By the beginning of war, "almost all" were in inoperable condition. The page http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...type-landsverk mentions about "a small number of obsolete Morris armoured cars". ...After a while of searching, I've found such Russian pages: http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored...olland/gmc.htm http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored...nd/wijnman.htm On the latter page there is an error, because in caption it says about 1934 year and 12 vehicles, while in the text there is 1932 and three vehicles: Buffel, Bison и Wisent, on Morris chassis. If we add it, an icon 2845 of Polish Kubus might be OK. I've found also such forum: http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...rs+before+1936 307 Carden Loyd 36 - better name seems VCL M1936 (it was Vickers tank, Carden Loyd is associated mostly with tankettes). Delivered in 11/1937 according to http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Du...rden_loyd.html You can see also http://www.overvalwagen.com/vickerstanks.html In fact, first two tanks were armed with twin Browning .30 MG, and only the rest, to be delivered from July 1939, were armed with Vickers TMG, but the difference might be negligible 308 MHarrington 4TA - they were operable only in 3/42 (now 8/41) http://www.overvalwagen.com/tanks.html http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ma...ton/nl-mh.html According to this page, they had only .30 CMG and BMG I suggest a full designation M-H CTLS-4TA Also, there could be added other M-H tanks: CTMS-1TBI and MTLS-1GI4, which were actually operated by the Dutch in Surinam (on contrary to dubious British tanks). They could be in a separate formation, named eg. "tanks in Surinam". More info: http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ma...tank.html#1tbi https://books.google.pl/books?id=N1L...20ctms&f=false (plans) ...Speaking of which: 03-05 Vickers Mk VI, Honey, Stuart, 193 Grant, 310 M3A1 Stuart - I couldn't find info about Dutch vehicles in Great Britain, but, considering, that the Dutch forces there weren't numerous, and enough only to create one infantry brigade (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...fantry_Brigade ), it is doubtful, if they used tanks. They should be for training only, anyway - since the brigade used only few armoured cars in combat. 188,189 Ram I,II - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_tank , Rams were acquired only post-war (and it would be quite strange to train the Dutch on Canadian tanks...) 309 Vickers LT 6B - there's no sign of Vickers 6-ton being used by the Dutch on pages about KNIL armour, nor in books nor pages about Vickers 6-ton. 311 VCL M1931 Amph - delivered in 11/1937 according to http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Du...rden_loyd.html and http://www.overvalwagen.com/vickerstanks.html Would need a change in form. 197-200 - the earliest KNIL tank. There are also photos of Dutch tanks 318 M3A1 Scout Car - acquired in early 1941 (now 1/40) - http://www.overvalwagen.com/armoured3.html Used until the end in Dutch West Indies. Better name is probably White Scout Car 319 M-H III - according to http://www.overvalwagen.com/armoured3.html they were armed in one Vickers TMG and one Vickers BMG (eg. weapon 151), and arrived in 2/41 (now 1/41). The Dutch had no Brens. There is also a photo http://www.overvalwagen.com/images/tangerang_ovw.jpg |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
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Rest: 13,14 DAF Med/Heavy Truck - In fact, Dutch army used mostly Ford trucks, also converted to three axle by DAF (Ford Trado) http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...he-trado-truck Photos are 2.5t GMC CCKW. I'd suggest to create just generic Medium/heavy truck and 6x6 Ford Trado as medium truck For a generic truck, photo 9275 would be better. In formation 170 ATG Motor Pl, medium trucks as 47mm tractors are better to be replaced with 160 DAF Utility Car utility vehicle, which shows a light artillery tractor Ford PAG. 152 KNIL DaF Truck - KNIL rather didn't use DAFs, but more easily available Chevys http://www.overvalwagen.com/transportvehicleschevy.html Photo is Dodge 6x6 Quote:
------ Unfortunately, I can't find info, what armoured vehicles had Prinses Irene Brigde in 1944. I can't verify Humbers nos 135-138. For sure there were used Daimler Dingo, which should be added (as armoured car?) - http://daimler-fighting-vehicles.co....%20brigade.pdf . According to "Batailles et Blindes" no.43, unit 47 Staghound was used in 9/44 by Princess Irene Bde, and it had also AEC AC III, Staghound AA and Humber LRC III, but it's hard to verify. I've found such pages http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/la...hbelgorbat.pdf and http://testofbattle.com/phpBB2/viewt...76c06ed069677c but they seem compilations for wargames, and both differ in details and are not sure. Especially it is not clear, if there was an Armoured Car Squadron indeed, which is in pdf file, marked as DB02 (1944). Anyway, for sure there were used Loyd tractors for 6 pdr AT guns (might be added) and Bren carriers. As for a Bren carrier, we have unit 011, which should have longer availability period - but on the other hand it can't serve as APC with its low capacity (it couldn't take even its 6 soldiers anyway). Maybe it should be some scout vehicle? Speaking of APCs, it seems clearly, that a basic mean of transport in 1944 wasn't 038 M3A2 Halftrack, but a truck... (there are no halftracks in quoted TOEs, and AFAIK they were rather used in limited quantity in infantry of armoured divisions, not in ordinary infantry brigades..). Thus, if we remove halftrack from formation 39 Mech Inf Pl and replace it with truck, 011 Bren carrier might just remain an APC for a longer period. It seems also, that there should be added HMG carrier (132 in British OOB) - or HMG transported by unarmed carriers. There should be also made a motorized 25 pdr battery available in 6/44 (we have only KNIL artillery in that period). I've found also such table, but alas without any vehicles: http://www.go2war2.nl/artikel/928/Pr...ade.htm?page=3 That's all as for now. |
Re: Netherlands OOB28 v.9
One more thing:
323,324 Overvalwagen I,II - Overvalwagens (Braat - army model) were made from late 1940. There were no I or II designations, but there were several variations of armament (without Bren and twin Madsens, though): http://www.overvalwagen.com/overval2.html There were also more improvised Stadtswacht Overvalwagens, armed with infantry weapons http://www.overvalwagen.com/overvalw.html Interesting vehicles were trucks with .50 AAMG http://www.overvalwagen.com/guntrucks.html 262 37mm AT-Gun - seems, that the KNIL bought some not typical 37mm guns from the USA in early 1942, made by National Forge - http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...IL+37mm+AT+Gun http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...+Anti-tank+gun Maybe a standard US M3 gun should be chosen as a pattern. A forum page on small calibre guns http://www.network54.com/Forum/33033...s%2C+1919-1942 |
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