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-   -   Visibility Scenario #336 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51373)

jivemi October 9th, 2016 04:00 AM
Visibility Scenario #336
 
In scenario #336, Forcing the Elbe, visibility is listed as 15. Yet Belgian units (Strikers and Scorpions) without thermals are hitting my guys beyond that range with ATGMs. Is the visibility figure wrong or am I missing something? Thanks.

Edit: This issue has already been covered in the game manual (see Unit Info Screen and Encyclopedia Screen) along with a relatively recent thread: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51274 Sorry for the oversight :o.

shahadi October 9th, 2016 04:39 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi (Post 835652)
In scenario #336, Forcing the Elbe, visibility is listed as 15. Yet Belgian units (Strikers and Scorpions) without thermals are hitting my guys beyond that range with ATGMs. Is the visibility figure wrong or am I missing something? Thanks.
I am certain the Strikers and Scorpions have a unit visibility greater than the scenario visibility. Their visibility rating of 30 enables those units to see 30 hex LOS.

Thermals have visibility ratings of 40 or greater enables the unit to see through smoke, etc.

You may refer to the game guide checking visibility and vision keywords for additional discussion.

I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
=====

jivemi October 9th, 2016 07:08 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Right you are shahadi. Thanks. Should've known that, silly me :doh:.

DRG October 9th, 2016 09:54 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahadi (Post 835653)
I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
=====
Scenario is designed to be played Human vs Human.....the only time grey hex V flags are an issue is when playing against the AI......that said all V hexes should be placed on the map even if they are doubled up and given minimal value but in this scenario if played as it was designed to be played the edge hex v flags are not an issue

That said if this scenario IS played against the AI It would probably play better with the computer playing as the defender, otherwise it's a bit of a turkey shoot

Don

jivemi October 10th, 2016 09:50 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 835655)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahadi (Post 835653)
I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
=====
Scenario is designed to be played Human vs Human.....the only time grey hex V flags are an issue is when playing against the AI......that said all V hexes should be placed on the map even if they are doubled up and given minimal value but in this scenario if played as it was designed to be played the edge hex v flags are not an issue

That said if this scenario IS played against the AI It would probably play better with the computer playing as the defender, otherwise it's a bit of a turkey shoot

Don
So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.

Aeraaa October 10th, 2016 06:10 PM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi (Post 835660)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 835655)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahadi (Post 835653)
I noticed Victory Flags 9 through 20 are unassigned in the gray hex border area of the map.
=====
Scenario is designed to be played Human vs Human.....the only time grey hex V flags are an issue is when playing against the AI......that said all V hexes should be placed on the map even if they are doubled up and given minimal value but in this scenario if played as it was designed to be played the edge hex v flags are not an issue

That said if this scenario IS played against the AI It would probably play better with the computer playing as the defender, otherwise it's a bit of a turkey shoot

Don
So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.
I;ve tried to take them in the same scenario and I was unsuccessful.

shahadi October 10th, 2016 08:38 PM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 835664)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi (Post 835660)

So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.
In this scenario, as designed they do not count. They are neutral. However, playing against AI, they may cause the AI "to have fits" (Game guide.)

If, say victory hex was Russian and you were playing Belgium, you'd want to get those points before end of game.

I;ve tried to take them in the same scenario and I was unsuccessful.
If you move infantry or a vehicle over the neutral hex the unit will go off-map but you will earn the points at game end.

You really want to consult with the game guide.

To play this scenario against AI, I would want those gray neutral hexes on map with Belgium control.

=====

jivemi October 10th, 2016 10:23 PM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahadi (Post 835668)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 835664)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi (Post 835660)

So what's the story on those grey-area V hexes? Do they ever count at all or are they completely irrelevant? (The battle ended a turn early before I had a chance to take it.) Thanks.
In this scenario, as designed they do not count. They are neutral. However, playing against AI, they may cause the AI "to have fits" (Game guide.)

If, say victory hex was Russian and you were playing Belgium, you'd want to get those points before end of game.

I;ve tried to take them in the same scenario and I was unsuccessful.
If you move infantry or a vehicle over the neutral hex the unit will go off-map but you will earn the points at game end.

You really want to consult with the game guide.

To play this scenario against AI, I would want those gray neutral hexes on map with Belgium control.

=====
Interesting. Missed all but the last sentence in Aeraaa's reply. Anyway as Russian against Belgian AI the game ended early, apparently because as he says in your quote of him the off-map VH(s) do(es)n't count. Got all the ones on-map. Dunno if any Belgian units exited via the grey VH; the Battle Results Screen for Player 1 (Belgians) didn't make any indication of that AFAIK.

However while most AI units were destroyed, retreating or routed, the AO and a few others were still hale and hearty so according to the game guide ("The game will end early if one side is thoroughly routed, or completely destroyed, and [my emphasis] the other side has gained all the victory hexes") it should've continued, right? Unless that "and" should be an "or."

shahadi October 11th, 2016 01:07 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jivemi (Post 835669)

Interesting. Missed all but the last sentence in Aeraaa's reply. Anyway as Russian against Belgian AI the game ended early, apparently because as he says in your quote of him the off-map VH(s) do(es)n't count. Got all the ones on-map. Dunno if any Belgian units exited via the grey VH; the Battle Results Screen for Player 1 (Belgians) didn't make any indication of that AFAIK.

However while most AI units were destroyed, retreating or routed, the AO and a few others were still hale and hearty so according to the game guide ("The game will end early if one side is thoroughly routed, or completely destroyed, and [my emphasis] the other side has gained all the victory hexes") it should've continued, right? Unless that "and" should be an "or."
Please check the total score on the battle report. At some point the game decided you had sufficient points to score a victory. A decisive victory is greater than 8:1 damage points, marginal victory is 2:1 to 8:1 damage points (see Game guide.)

The neutral gray hex contains 3,000 points. Again, check the total score in the battle report, you maybe able to tell if the Belgium side got the 3k points.

=====

Imp October 11th, 2016 01:31 AM
Re: Visibility Scenario #336
 
Quote:
However while most AI units were destroyed, retreating or routed, the AO and a few others were still hale and hearty so according to the game guide ("The game will end early if one side is thoroughly routed, or completely destroyed, and [my emphasis] the other side has gained all the victory hexes") it should've continued, right? Unless that "and" should be an "or."
Nitpicking how would you describe it concisely.

If no unit in good order is contesting a victory hex then the game can end early. Assume they just tried to evade & escape the battle is lost & hence over.

Lets assume you started with 60 units.
The otherside takes or had control of all the objectives.
You now have say 5 units in good order the rest are destroyed or routed.
Your way past the point of being an efective fighting force outcome is obvious so the game calls it a day, force moral was lost ages ago if any of your remaining units got in a fight they would soon be running anyway.


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