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My AI Design Q&A

I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game. My first attempt is a normal (no special racial trait) race. Starting with nothing between the *Begin* and *End* lines of the AI files to make the race from scratch. To learn, I am mining the top 14 AI�s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. I have searched through the forum for many topics related to AI design and read a lot of information, but I still have some questions.

If you design AI�s, then maybe you can help. Reading through AI Text Files Tips & Hints I noticed many of the bugs mentioned there that seem to have been fixed, but I still wonder about some of them. Things that seem to be fixed, please tell me if I am wrong: boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever. Things that still don�t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn�t use recyclers or resource converters; still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together (though it works for already marked mine fields on the mine sweeper type) ; planet based fleet training still not effective.

1) Can the AI now effectively use cloaking abilities on Space Yard Ships? MB uses cloak, Mephisto still does not, and Rollo doesn�t even use Space Yard Ships.
2) If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons for a light cruiser than a destroyer for instance, then I notice the AI often thinks the destroyer is newer and the light cruiser is obsolete. I thought this only happened after the dreadnaught class was reached?
3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.
4) I don�t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding) to have the AI specifically call for normal armor without any special abilities?
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

I�m sure I will have more questions later. Any assistance you can provide will be much appreciated.

[ July 18, 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

I am mining the top 14 AI�s from death match 2 for ideas and insights.

Agreed, I also have learnt a lot from MB, the Master with the AI.

Quote:

boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever.

Boarding, not just right for the AI yet.
Kamikazi and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Experts may elaborate, more then I.

Quote:

Things that still don�t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn�t use recyclers or resource converters

The AI does not use Converters.
Recycelers, the AI may not be smart enough here either. I don't use this for my AI. If you use this, put with a Colony that builds a yard.

Quote:

still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together

The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.

Quote:

planet based fleet training still not effective

Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.

~~~~~

(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship) , the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build..

(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators .
As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)

(5) Great stirring question. This depends on what you want that AI to do, and thier are many ideas on this. And should be debated by many http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Inregards to Colonizers, I listen to MB's advise. Actually take all the advise form all the Players, but the Experts I mentioned above, will have the answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

First, thanks for the response, JLS.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Boarding, not just right for the AI yet. Kamikaze and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results.

Can you elaborate on what is wrong with boarding? I am not using it in this AI yet, but I want to have the option in the future.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Experts may elaborate, more then I.

There was a really bad bug before that would produce recon satellites infinitely, but I'm sure it was fixed. Ah, history.txt fixed in 1.51.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Recycelers, the AI may not be smart enough here either.

I believe the problem is they do not know how to move ships over to the recycler before scrapping.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(Regarding mine sweepers and cloasks).I don't see why not. I need and will test this, for both of us, I use this for 2 or 3 AI designs.

Scout and Colony ships with mine sweeping and cloak died horribly without sweeping any of the mines. Mine sweepers will de-cloak for a previously marked mine field, but then they will cloak and move forward and happily die without sweeping any mines on the next warp point that has not been marked. So it sort of works for mine sweepers, but not at all for the rest.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have as many Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation and or SY Colonies as Possable. Military and/or Construction Colonies are good.

Ship training seem somewhat useful, but the AI doesn't move ships there intentionally, they just happen to land there by chance and get some training. Fleet training at one time was useless because the AI broke and remade fleets very often, but I have not tested if this was fixed.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship), the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build.
(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators. As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read. I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)
(5) Great stirring question. This depends on what you want that AI to do, and thier are many ideas on this. And should be debated by many

1) I was talking about a ship space yard not a BSY. To go in cloaked and repair crippled ships is how the AI would use it, I think. But it might mess up the yard capability when at the front line resupply depot.
2) Switched from missles CSM1 to beams DUC3, light cruiser designed turn 5, destroyer replaces turn 6. Destroyer is below light cruiser in designcreation file.
3) I have seen them try for a while, over and over.
4) If only that worked. The problem is you end up getting the highest damage resistance armor, which is scattering. But earlier you get smaller armor. Makes too comlicated to build the rest of the design to your exact specifications. Sometimes I just want Armor III and not the others.
5) How the file gets processed, and everyones experience with this, is really what I would like to know.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'

===

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.

So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false

Will this not yield AI ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none.

Here I was lending assistance, to you. Not to make to many Recon Sats in your Vehicle build File, because to the AI SAT launcher, a Satellite is a Satellite, and it may look pretty weird having 40 or more early level Psychic or Temporal Recon sats with your AI's 100 anti -ship Satellite group. Wouldn�t you say?

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.

I may be misunderstanding you Cybersol, do you think the AI should make Planet Training Facilities at all in base se4?

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersol:
(4) If only that worked. The problem is you end up getting the highest damage resistance armor, which is scattering. But earlier you get smaller armor. Makes too comlicated to build the rest of the design to your exact specifications. Sometimes I just want Armor III and not the others.

Interesting Cybersol, you had the answer to your own qestion.
Now, we need the trick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The answer, I gave is the current way it is set up for the Base se4, default files.

In AIC the AI will place Ablative, Armor and then Emisive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Not the fancy expensive stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cybersol, I feel, I will learn from you, regarding Base se4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I wish you all the success http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:
I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game. My first attempt is a normal (no special racial trait) race. Starting with nothing between the *Begin* and *End* lines of the AI files to make the race from scratch.

From scratch?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

To learn, I am mining the top 14 AI’s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. I have searched through the forum for many topics related to AI design and read a lot of information, but I still have some questions.

Looks like a good approach.

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

If you design AI’s, then maybe you can help. Reading through AI Text Files Tips & Hints I noticed many of the bugs mentioned there that seem to have been fixed, but I still wonder about some of them. Things that seem to be fixed, please tell me if I am wrong: boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever. Things that still don’t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn’t use recyclers or resource converters; still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together (though it works for already marked mine fields on the mine sweeper type) ; planet based fleet training still not effective.

Agree with your observations...

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

1) Can the AI now effectively use cloaking abilities on Space Yard Ships? MB uses cloak, Mephisto still does not, and Rollo doesn’t even use Space Yard Ships.

A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

2) If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons for a light cruiser than a destroyer for instance, then I notice the AI often thinks the destroyer is newer and the light cruiser is obsolete. I thought this only happened after the dreadnaught class was reached?

I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon...

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Nope, I don't know how to do it... Think Aaron "fixed" it in several patches, but the behavior is still there.

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

4) I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding) to have the AI specifically call for normal armor without any special abilities?

Think you can do something like:
Misc Ability 1 Name := Armor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10

Or use the "Armor Spaces Per One := 10"

The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...
For example, a BC design (size 600K) with the line: Armor Spaces Per One := 60, will have 8 Scattering Armors!!

But if you put this line at the end of the Misc Abilities:
Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 10
If this design still have 60K of space, then, the AI will put 1 Scattering Armor and 1 Standard Armor.

In the same way, if the ship have "free" space, the AI will complete the design using the best available Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:

I’m sure I will have more questions later. Any assistance you can provide will be much appreciated.

If I can help you, just drop me a mail.

Best Regards

JL

[ June 12, 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
I also have learnt a lot from MB, the Master with the AI.

Hey, thanks! But I just have learned from Mephisto, Alpha Kodiak, Atraikius and Rollo... Think they're more creative than me and the true "Masters".

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Boarding, not just right for the AI yet.
Kamikazi and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yep, but I saw the Colony ships of the Vikings board ships... and explode!
But consider that these kind of ships can be used for other purposes as auxiliary ships.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.

In my view, at least the AI does a decent job (I think!).

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.

Agree with you... but still will be by chance.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?

Good question. My oppinon is that the Armor Cloak is good because give the bonus and a little protection while cloaked. Anwyay, a lone space shipyard usually is dead meat...

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship) , the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build..

Think he was talking about the rotation between designs, that at some point the AI start to do (even using the same name!).

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators .
As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Agree with you.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)

Agree... but the AI will try to use the "best" available Armor (it mean, Scattered Armor if have the tech and the space).

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Inregards to Colonizers, I listen to MB's advise. Actually take all the advise form all the Players, but the Experts I mentioned above, will have the answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [/QB]

Hug, thanks! But really think that we're most the time blind, and the trial/error and exchange experiences, are the only way to find most of the answers...

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'

You made me think and go test things so much that I started to post before your edit, but finished afterwards.

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false
Will this not yield ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?

The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A

[quote]Originally posted by cybersol:

Quote:

The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is exactly my approach... and the approach of most of the "modern" modders.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

bumped

[ June 12, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
From scratch?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!

Yeah, it seemed like a good idea when I started, but it takes longer than you would think. At least it forces me to learn about and make a decision on everything. So far I'm just focusing on the bussiness end of the AI, not the political or speech, etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).

Well that explains why you cloak them. I'm implementing space yard ships now, so I have not tested them. My impression from previous Posts is that they are supposed to go to a front line resupply base and construct from there. If they indeed build lots of stuff in the middle of nowhere then I will have to cloak them or not build them as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon...

It works better now that I call the destroyer and lower "light attack ship" and the light cruisers to battle cruisers "main attack ship". I hope it doesn't decided to produce more light attack ships later in the game though. CSM1 destroyers versus dreadnaughts would be amusing but not effective.

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!

Yeah, I reached that conclusion also. If the armor were give an ability like "normal armor" and that could be called in the misc section that would work SO much better. Alas that requires modding though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. This is a really interesting inquiry, and might deserve its own thread, but it would be all you guys anyway.

MB, what you describe is what I though at first also. AI_Research and AI_Planet_Types definitely work the way you describe, but they don't loop and are not numbered. I will have to test this out some more, because as you say it determines optimal queue length and behaivor.