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Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Exclusive techs, as seen in Moo games and etc.

If you've researched tech A, it is impossible to research tech B, but if you haven't researched tech A, you can research tech B no problem. (And vice versa)

Are there some good examples of techs that should be exclusive?
Surely there must be something if there are games that include it...

Quote:

I never did understand how that sort of thing would make any sort of sense.

Eg:
If the russians develop tech A, they can't research tech B, even though the Americans decided to ignore tech A and sucessfully developed tech B instead.
If the americans did it, why can't the russians do it too if they really want to?

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Originally posted by Me Loonn:
Well, one could think it as simple as railway track width, that differs in some countiers, or as bolts and screws that are either inch or mm based.
After making desision to use one, changing to other would require massive scrappin of old and replasing all those former bolts and screws that have now become "absolite".

... [trek example] ...

I know this sounds rather clumsy exsample, but in practical use of different techs, all kinds of problems emerge (PC, anyone... ?)

That's a fair start, but the imperial to metric conVersion will only take a generation or three if you try.
Probably the closest Space Empires analog to the railway idea would be Standard extractors to monoliths... you have to scrap the old and build the new from scratch... at worst, an entire planet at a time.
You'd have to lay down new track across your country/province/state, then get new trains, tear up the old tracks afterwards, and redesign the stations perhaps, but if the economic incentive was there, or if I became dictator for life of the country, it could happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I certainly agree that some changes should be difficult to make, but it seems to me that if it was physically possible to do before you learn something, it should certainly be possible after you've learned something.

Aside: Don't bother with the rest if you're just into the philosphical side.

However... I also believe that it would be a useful ability to have in the game.
For example, to close off truly useless tech areas. If you've just made a major breakthrough, and developed an engine that is smaller/faster/cheaper and uses less supplies than the previous drive would ever achieve, then it would make sense to have the old drive techs become Obsolete and unavailable.

Or, for two tech areas that both provide the same results...
for example, a 100,000 point area that provides access to a torpedo weapons tech area, and a 10,000 point area that also provides the same torpedo weapons tech area, but has other prerequisites, say a ruins tech or military science.
When you've researched one, the other will be useless, as they're both doors to the same tech.
So both techs should obsolete the other.

PS:
While I like StarTrek as much as the next guy, its hardly ever a good example for stuff like this.
They should have just ordered a pre-fab outpost from replicated parts from some Federation construction contractor in the area, and saved themselves a whole lot of trouble.
When things are that bad, you scrap and rebuild from scratch to save vast amounts of time and effort, and probably credits in the long run.

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Just a thought....

Learning A by research can make it effectively (but not truely) impossible to learn B by research - it is a matter of A saying certain things required for B are impossible when they may not be; this would cause anyone wanting to research B to be laughed out of the Scientific Community, and not recieve any of the necessary funding for finding B. The only way B gets opened back up is if it is concretely demonstrated to the SC that the portion of A which said B was impossible is wrong (e.g. someone bLasting them in their faces with technology B, or getting a sample of B from a captured ship, or finding a sample of B in some ruins, or ...).

Another way this could happen would be a matter of point - if you have method A of making holograms which, at present, is much more effective in every way than method C, then nobody is going research method C once A is discovered. However, if some of the principals used in C later lead to B, but A does not have these principals, then A being discovered may prevent B from being subsequently discovered. Again, it becomes effectively (but not truely - theoretically the powers-that-be could order research in C, eventually leading to B - but how likely is that?) impossible to learn B once A is discovered, barring picking the principals up from somewhere else.

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

I think the idea has some merit. Rather than a strict "either, or" maybe it should increase the cost of "switching over". Keep in mind that the timescale of a game is one extended war, so empires are in war production mode and leadership needs to provide clear direction without constantly shifting priorities around. If research priorities are shifted around, there should be a penalty.

Example: Shields or armor.
If you choose armor, then the cost of shield research increases due to having to switch over your economy, technology, ships and equipment. You still can research both, but at a much higher cost than either one individually. This would allow you to research one branch much farther in the same time if it were done exclusively.

This kind of research model would diminish the ability to quickly respond to what the enemy is doing and provide a counter. As such, it would need to be done carefully, because this aspect of SE4 is one of the things that makes it a great game and a poor implementaton might ruin the game.

Slick.

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Are there some good examples of techs that should be exclusive?
Surely there must be something if there are games that include it...

I think it's just a game-play mechanic with no basis in reality.

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Most of the switch-over costs would be in facilities and materials, wich would become apparent if the production chain was more elaborate (i.e., if you need smelters and factories to produce armor, and then you have to scrap them to start building 'shield generator factory' facilities).

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Quote:

If you choose armor, then the cost of shield research increases due to having to switch over your economy, technology, ships and equipment. You still can research both, but at a much higher cost than either one individually. This would allow you to research one branch much farther in the same time if it were done exclusively.

I strongly believe that replacing such things should not cost you more research. You still have to pay to retrofit your ships to use shields, pull them off the front lines, or plain rebuild from scratch.

You don't need researchers with doctorates to do grunt work in the shipyards.

-edit-
Yeah, like Erax said.

Jack:
Interesting.

As to your second part, that seems to me an example of tech C having a prerequisite D, that is also needed by B.

A= PPB
B= ECM
C= Torpedos
D= Military Science

Now, for that first part...
It sounds like this could be trying to emulate a lack of knowlege of the tech tree...

However, after the first few times playing, players will know to take tech C instead of tech A in order to get tech B
And in addition, there is no way to clear the exclusion when the race's researchers experience the paradigm shift (such as in the examples you gave)
Plenty of implementation problems, for sure.

Now, it seems to me with the system of prerequisites as seen in SE4, the tech dosen't become available for research at all until you have knowledge of everything that is required...
Thus, you can't really be sidelined by some other tech.

On the other hand, if the glass is half full, you could see it as the interesting possibility of jumping techs.
Something like a tech area that opens up cloaking devices after researching stealth armor.
That bridge tech could become unavailable after researching physics 1, but the cloaking devices are still accessible through the regular path to Physics level 3.

[ July 02, 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Jack:
Interesting.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

As to your second part, that seems to me an example of tech C having a prerequisite D, that is also needed by B.

A= PPB
B= ECM
C= Torpedos
D= Military Science

Now, for that first part...
It sounds like this could be trying to emulate a lack of knowlege of the tech tree...

Which is reasonable, no? It could also explain the racial techs (e.g. crystal techies can't grasp that organic tech because some of the theories they rely on say it's impossible, and vice-versa; those who buy both traits have a different set of theories that work and aren't mutually exclusive). Also, I was focusing more on the philisophical side.

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

However, after the first few times playing, players will know to take tech C instead of tech A in order to get tech B

Yes ... but remember, A was better than C in every way possible; assuming they have the same research costs, it then becomes a matter of choosing short-term or long-term. Likewise, I didn't address what comes later down the line in tech A....

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

And in addition, there is no way to clear the exclusion when the race's researchers experience the paradigm shift (such as in the examples you gave)

Well, for picking up the tech from elsewhere, it could get back on track via supplying a forbidden tech, which is a prerequisite for later stuff in that tree. As for them being bLasted in the face with it, I suppose you're right - but then again, a black-box demonstration wouldn't really help too terribly much anyway, would it? They would also need to be told something of how it works (which just ain't gonna happen in a combat situation) - although they could perhaps steal it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Plenty of implementation problems, for sure.

Considering that we are discussing things that would require hard-coded changes? Yah, definately.

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Now, it seems to me with the system of prerequisites as seen in SE4, the tech dosen't become available for research at all until you have knowledge of everything that is required...
Thus, you can't really be sidelined by some other tech.

You could a little if there is always something better to research - you just keep researching the best, and the not-best from earlier could reasonably get ignored - however, when the tech tree no longer produces better stuff for the cost (it does run out, after all), then a player would start going back and filling things out. But yes, it was mostly just a philisophical argument for the inclusion of exclusive techs; applying it to a possible mod would be tricky at best.

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

On the other hand, if the glass is half full, you could see it as the interesting possibility of jumping techs.
Something like a tech area that opens up cloaking devices after researching stealth armor.
That bridge tech could become unavailable after researching physics 1, but the cloaking devices are still accessible through the regular path to Physics level 3.

Yes, that is an interesting possibility.
<HR>Something else that could be interesting would be a stratified random tech tree constructor - at the start of the game, for each empire the engine looks at the tech tree, and randomly splices it at points the data files tell it are available for splicing, limiting it to a small set of possible pairings on the splices. For example, the prerequisites for a tech might look like: (A AND B) OR (A AND C)|(B AND C) OR (B AND D)|(C AND D) OR (C AND E)

Where the | tells the randomizer that only one of those segments are picked (and the empire it applies to has no say in which set must be researched), split there. Such a thing could halt familiarity with the tech tree from being as much of an advantage.

[ July 02, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

A few ideas:

* Knowledge and technology are two different things. Knowing the principles of doing things is different from having the machinery, infrastructure, and knowhow (skilled technicians) to actually build it.

* The MOO2 forced decisions seem to me way overdone and arbitrary, essentially a severe abstraction to force some diversity, without much reasonable basis.

* Jack Simth's points about the success of one theory blocking researching into other theories is excellent, though it's not a complete block.

* One way to achieve this in modded SE4 is to have major theoretical prerequisites which make it possible but impractical (or at least, a major trade-off) to try to research alternate branches. It would also help if the research points, costs, and tree depths were sufficient to avoid players "getting to the end and having nothing better to do with their research points".

* I think there are some other kinds of situations which could be abstractly modelled by unavailable branches, but again it would be a severe abstraction. For instance, conflicts between technological research versus religious or magical research. Realistic detail would include organizations within an empire which are opposed to research and development of rival fields. E.g. Corporate Capitalist empire with gasoline car manufacturing and oil/gas industry being opposed to developing more efficient and reliable cars, or alternative energy cars, even though the technology could in theory be developed quite quickly without that internal political obstacle.

* It would be convenient to be able to mark tech trees and areas as "obsolete", but I wouldn't want it to be a forced thing in most cases. On the other hand, it is a good argument that some technologies coming into prevalence can cause older technologies to fall out of use, with side-effects. Again, an abstract mechanic could represent this by having say, plate armor and cavalry become unavailable, or at least much harder to produce, after gunpowder weapons reach an advanced state. It's not really an accurate cause and effect, however. The real cause is a shift in infrastructure and trained workforce (technology) and socio-economic effects, neither of which are really included in SE4.

PvK

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

Quote:

It could also explain the racial techs (e.g. crystal techies can't grasp that organic tech because some of the theories they rely on say it's impossible, and vice-versa; those who buy both traits have a different set of theories that work and aren't mutually exclusive). Also, I was focusing more on the philisophical side.

I consider the Organic and Crystalline techs to be somewhat borderline.
Psychic, Temporal, & Religious are more easily seen to be something inherent to your race's biology, at least by me.

The kind of thing you'd need thousands to millions to hundreds of millions of years to change, and a re well outside the scope of the game.

Although, again, planet and star creation should also take more than thousands of years to settle down to something usable.

Quote:

Yes ... but remember, A was better than C in every way possible; assuming they have the same research costs, it then becomes a matter of choosing short-term or long-term. Likewise, I didn't address what comes later down the line in tech A....

Fair enough. There are decent ways to weave it into gameplay.

Quote:

Again, an abstract mechanic could represent this by having say, plate armor and cavalry become unavailable, or at least much harder to produce, after gunpowder weapons reach an advanced state. It's not really an accurate cause and effect, however. The real cause is a shift in infrastructure and trained workforce (technology) and socio-economic effects, neither of which are really included in SE4.

I'm really starting to like the idea of giving greater and greater cost reductions for each item made using one repeat-build order...
Something like 1% cheaper after every 5000kt of resource spent, up to a limit of 20% cheaper.

Quote:

* One way to achieve this in modded SE4 is to have major theoretical prerequisites which make it possible but impractical (or at least, a major trade-off) to try to research alternate branches. It would also help if the research points, costs, and tree depths were sufficient to avoid players "getting to the end and having nothing better to do with their research points".

A good, practical idea.
First you need to make sure the alternatives are all viable, though (and in different ways). None of the APB/PPB we see in unmodded SE4; more like SE3.

Re: Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

First, the idea is good. I had once raised such a discussion already, but i was talking about randomizing techs available to races. As such, i like the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The realistic theory behind those techs is basicly the same as behind racial techs. Each race had developed in its own unique environment - one was forced to evolve on trees, another one was evolved on a planet with 6G. Third race had developed on a planet with soup-like atmosphere and as such were able to move in complete 3d, and have perfect graps of 3d movement. Fourth race was the dominant carnivore specie. Each one of these would develop their own, unique, technologies. Most obvious things are outer appearance - before mass production, media and gunpowder, maybe even before mass knighthood, each race and tribe had their own outfits and war outfits.
OK i went long enough, basicly the point is the race through millions of years develops a specific way of thinking, and simply cannot grasp, by any means, something completely different. Its like a bird describing you how to fly, or fish explaining how to breath with gills. Or like an alien explaining you the Five Steps in time travel.

Heh, thats long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif application... no its not possible in SE4 because it requires A SIMPLE BOOLEAN SWITCH but its not there. Realy, this requires a simple function to use with basic TRUE/FALSE. On race development it decides which techs you can develop and not, and condition switches IF (researched tech A) THEN (mark tech B obsolete).

but, there are no conditional switches in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

EDIT:
In addition, consider personality tech paths - an aggressor would find great torpedoes, missiles, beams a must, but a more defensive player would attain ECM, advanced shields and armor. A simple choice between PDC and Missiles, in the beginning, would make later techs (Advanced PDC or Advanced Missiles) obsolete, accordingly.

[ July 03, 2003, 02:29: Message edited by: Taera ]