Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Well, I dislike the endless discussions, specially when feel that have no opportunity to change the mind of the other person(s). This is the main reason, because I mostly ignored this topic.
Anyway, today feel myself more cynical than other days, and will post some of my thoughts... is somewhat long, then, you could ignore this post and I'll be fine!
Some things I consider Facts.
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a) Sorry guys, but we don't live in a fair world. The Justice and fairness are only a human illusion, just an ideal.
Somebody need examples? Just a few: Why I can't F$%K with Cameron Diaz?, Why I need to work to have a decent life?, Why some people doesn't have a decent job to live?, Why I'm more and more fat every day and other people is dying right now, due lack of food?
b) From the times of the first civilizations to our days, the WAR always was with us, and will be here until the extinction of the mankind.
Examples? The list of wars would be endless... and think does not exist evidence that would finish some day.
c) A country doesn't need "good" reasons to invade / attack other country.
Of course that doesn't need a good excuse, because a bad one would work fine.
The ONLY what a nation need, is enough POWER (it mean money, technology, army, political alliances, etc) to carry out the attack and resist the international pressures or counter attacks.
Somebody could object that in the western democracies of our times, the crowd need a "good reason", my point is that the mass of people can be manipulated just clicking the right "buttons".
d) The Moral has little to be with the International Relations.
Is pretty obvious that the moral issues are pointless when we talk about international relations.
From Machiavelli to our days, everybody know that the "raisons du êtat" are more strong than any moral objection.
Example: If you kill somebody driving while you're drunk, probably you will go to the jail... but nobody will go to the jail, if a missile kill civilian people (yea, everybody know that the "colateral damage" can't be avoided!). Well, I admit that if a country lose a war the persons involved with "collateral damage" can be judged as a criminals... but remember: ONLY the losers are criminals!
Example 2: somebody has doubts that a free country committed with the democracy as USA, used the CIA to change democratic governments for dictatorships, just because those new governments would be pro-USA? It happened in my own country and in most of the South America countries during the 70s. USA did not this because is evil... did it because considered that was the best to server their purposes.
e) To live in peace, a nation need to be prepared to fight or at least have powerful allies.
This is old like the life: the big fish eat the small fish...
Objections?
f) In terms of power, USA is the Roman Empire of our times. Is the first power in the world, and doesn't exist a 2nd power.
Don't think somebody could object this.
Have USA the right to Invade Iraq?
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Based on the "facts" I wrote above, is pretty obvious to me, that USA have the RIGHT (yes, the RIGHT!) to invade Iraq and attack / invade every other country that could be considered a target or menace. If USA could use the UN as shield to carry out his actions, yes, would be better for USA try to keep an appearance of legality , but if not... what the hell!!
What I dislike
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I think in some way, USA try to justify his acts with some hypocrisy... but of course that my stupid objections are pure BullS###t considering the "fact" c).
Here some of the published reasons, and my opinions (irrelevant opinions!).
1) "Operation Iraqui Freedom" think is a bad name... sounds a bad joke to me. They had free elections and Saddam got all the votes!!!
Yes, Saddam is a tyrant, a sanguinary one, and so what?
If the goal of this war, is release the people of Iraq, then, why Bush father didn't removed Saddam after the first war in the gulf? Why nobody helped the Kurdish and Shiites that started revolts against Saddam after the first war in the gulf? And finally, as others wrote here, USA have/had many tyrants as allies, and it not mean that USA will invade those countries to release the local population (well, Panama was an exception!).
2) Because Iraq is a menace to USA.
Still I want to know how Iraq could hurt USA.
Using Scuds? With those old 60's missiles?
With anthrax or Chemicals? Then, how they could spread it to cause enough damage?
With those old rusky tanks?
Using Nukes? hehehe, although somebody would decide to use it some day, everybody knows the reprisals after an attack against USA (do you remember Afghanistan?).
Yes, I think that Saddam was (and I'm saying was, because has not many days to live) a menace for his people and for his neighbors, agree. But for USA? Remember to me the Grand Fenwick!
N.Korea claim to have Nukes that could use in "preventive attacks"... and can bet 100 to 1, to everybody want on this board, that the US marines will not put their foots in NK.
3) Because Saddam have links with Al-Quaida, and probably helped to do the 9/11 attack.
The arguments to support this, that I was able to read/hear seems very weak to me, honestly.
And although both have common enemies, Saddam is an heretic for Ossama just a bit better than the "Great Satan"
4) Because Iraq has not filled the UN resolutions and still had WMD.
A good reason... but the question is that the UN decided to continue with the inspections instead to authorize a new attack against Iraq. This is related with the next argument:
5) USA doesn't need to have a new UN resolution, because still they're at war from 1991, due Iraq doesn't filled the conditions to sign the peace.
Then I ask, why so many words so many pressures to get the enough votes in the UN, to authorize a new attack?
What Think are the probably Reasons for this war
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The polls in most the world, show that the people doesn't agree with this war. Only in USA is popular and think I know the reason: the 9/11. IMHO this is the clue.
First all, think the "hawks" in the Pentagon / White House, used the 9/11 to move the machine war and get the strength to impose the "preventive doctrine".
Second, specifically about the reasons of this war:
1) The Oil of course. Is not a secret that Iraq is an strategic place and have one of the biggest reserves of "crude". Is not a secret that "to save Kwait" was not the main reason to save them from Saddam in the frist war in the gulf.
2) To show to other enemies what USA can do if a country have an hostile attitude... and show that support the terrorism against USA will involve a great danger.
3) Bush need to show to his country, that the crusade against the Terrorism, "The War on Terror", has not finished and he will fulfill their promises to annihilate the terrorism.
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