Regarding the statements made by several people that "18th century capitalism was somehow more pure and the free sort of capitalism".
This is an anti-historical myth in my opinion. There never was such a time (although references to this time before FDR came and screwed everything up with the New Deal run rife in the current right wing story about the history of the United States). For starters it was not a free capitalistic society because many parts of it relied on slavery. You could argue that this ideal society existed in the western parts of the United States where "man lived by the sweat of his brow alone". But, as I mentioned very briefly earlier, DeSoto showed that this was not actually the case. Man lived on this land, yes, and improved it. But he was not legally allowed to benefit from that land until *after* a very large number of people had already homesteaded. The first homesteaders were breaking the law and were quite lucky that government didn't invalidate their claims. It could easily have gone the other way.
Geo: It sounds like we agree on quite a bit. My apologies for making an unfair assumption at the beginning of the discussion, but I kind of had to in order to get the ball rolling.
Regarding Totalitarianism and Capitalism: IMO the best modern example of this is not China, but Singapore (an extremely successful country by almost any measure you care to make, yet you can get caned for chewing gum on the subway). Although I hope, as you folks do, that these societies will eventually collapse, the historical record is not so encouraging in places. Totalitarianism has a way of sticking around even when people are given a little bit of freedom.
An interesting, although slightly tangential, point is that made by Robert Fogel in his work which won him the 1993 Nobel Prize in economics. He argued that, contrary to what most people are taught in school, the slave economy of the Negro south was in fact very very effecieint and perhaps the most effecient in the world. Sobering news indeed for those who believe that the be all and end all of economics, and by extension society, is to make things as effecient as humanly possible.
Cheers!
Teal
Edit: Fogel's work is contreversial to say the least. Make up your own mind about it.
[ May 16, 2003, 19:17: Message edited by: teal ]