[Pax]

Originally posted by DavidG:
Do you not own a dictionary? Are you unaware of the victory conditions option in the game? If you play a game of chess and lose your king you have lost the game.

I have not achieved victory, you are absolutely right on that account.

But, if I enjoyed the game, and learned something from my loss ... then I have, indeed, won.

You may have had fun doing it but you lost.

To insist this, means you can only percieve mechanics-based victory as a "win", and anythign less as a "loss". Victory for it's own sake is not something I consider fun, and so, not something I would count as a "win".

If you are playing a game of Se4 on Last man standing rules then yes the object is to make everyone else lose. This does NOT mean you are trying to make the game no fun for them. Why are you trying to turn a desire to win into something evil and nasty? It is the object of the game in most SE4 games I have played.

Ah, but one does not have to achieve the object of the game, in order to win, if one roleplays, and enjoys doing so!

I'm not turning the desire to achieve objective victory into a bad, villainous thing.

Why, on the other hand, are you insisting only objective victories count as "winning", when subjective victory should count every bit as much?

Originally posted by DavidG:
Win = Have Fun
Lose = Have Fun
Therefore: Win = Lose

Absolutely incorrect. Try it this way:

Win = have fun.
Lose = not have fun.
Therefor, Win = Not Lose.

I apologize if it seems like I'm going on a rant here but I don't understand why some people seem to want to vilianize a desire to win.

Noone here is. Instead, you are trying to trivialise alternate definitions of "winning", which take into account purely personal objectives, rather than the singular, outside objective(s) of the game setup itself.

Most games have rules that define who the winner is. You won't see the Maple Leafs losing the 7th game of the Stanley Cup 10-1 and then have the ref say 'oh wait they had more fun so they win'

BEcause, despite what people will tell you, professional sports isn't really about having fun; it's about making money, and teams that achieve nonsubjective victories make more money.

In SE4 the rules often say the Last empire alive wins. So I try to make this my empire. Is that really a bad thing?

As long as you have fun doing so, and don't try to purposefully deny enjoyment ot others ... no, not at all. Again, that' the beauty of the way I define "win" -- you can have your win, and I can still have mine. At the same time!

Personaly I think everyone trys to win in SE4 even if they won't admit it to themselves. I've played the Prirates in a P&N game which is pretty tough to win at (and I didn't) but I still tried to win. Yes I had fun but I did not win the game.

Do I try to accomplish the static goals and objectives set forth in the SE4 game itself? Of course.

But to me, I win from turn 0, so long as I enjoy pursuing that static, external goal, within the confines of the persona I have selected for my race.

Now, as for your quip, above, about owning a dictionary:

From the Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com):
Main Entry: 1win
Pronunciation: 'win
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): won /'w&n/; win·ning
Etymology: Middle English winnen, from Old English winnan to struggle; akin to Old High German winnan to struggle and probably to Latin venus sexual desire, charm, Sanskrit vanas desire, vanoti he strives for
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a : to get possession of by effort or fortune b : to obtain by work : EARN
2 a : to gain in or as if in battle or contest b : to be the victor in
3 a : to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause -- often used with over b : to induce to accept oneself in marriage
4 a : to obtain (as ore, coal, or clay) by mining b : to prepare (as a vein or bed) for regular mining c : to recover (as metal) from ore
5 : to reach by expenditure of effort
intransitive senses
1 : to gain the victory in a contest : SUCCEED
2 : to succeed in arriving at a place or a state
- win·less /'win-l&s/ adjective
- win·na·ble /'wi-n&-b&l/ adjective

Pay especial attention to the definitions I put in bold. You adhere solely to the first of the two -- absolute victory in the contest that is SE4.

I, on the other hand, adhere mostly but not exclusively to the second. I consider myself to have won, if I arrive (as early as possible) in a state of enjoyment with the game.

The fun part is, if I enjoy 100 turns of the game, I could see it as having won that game 100 times.

So; why must you insist that my vision of "winning" is any less valid than yours? Over-competitiveness, perhaps?

[ June 07, 2003, 07:29: Message edited by: Pax ]