[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by oleg:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
Yes, but the issue was very much in doubt for a while. The Germans could have beaten the Russians with a few breaks and some better decision making. It makes you wonder if the Germans had their full force attacking the Russians, instead of holding much in reserve to defend the Atlantic Wall, and the Russians had not had the support of the lend lease program if they would have been able to hold out.

Geoschmo

Germany could never win. I do not think most people on the West fully understand how strong was the determination and resolve of russians. I know it from what my granddad told - he fight from 41 to 43 (he was sapper and Last both fists when mine exploded but survived). Even if Germans made no mistakes and capture Moscow - so did Napoleon. France surrended after losing Paris, but Russia is just to big. Fall of Moscow and Leningrad would be a severe loss and death of many more millions of people but it would only prolong war not change the outcome. It is rather pointless to speculate now, history does not know "what if", that is just what I feel.

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Sorry my friend, but the Soviets were putting out feelers for a negotiated settlement prior to Stalingrad. Had 7th Army wheeled east and crossed the river, the war in Russia would probably have ended that fall. West of the Urals would have been Germany’s and the Soviets would have kept everything to the east. Stalin would have gotten a new neck tie, and history would have been different.