[Growltigger]

Originally posted by rdouglass:
Just 2 cents....

The truth (as usual) is somewhere there in the middle. Yes lawyers help us (common citizens) out of many legal issues that we are not capable or trained to deal with. And of that we pay you handsomely.

I believe the same applies to pretty much every trade or profession. I could say the same about plumbers, boiler repairmen, carpenters, electricians, surveyors, and in fact, just about anybody who has a service or skill which you personally dont possess. I know that my plumber for example makes me look cheap!

Originally posted by rdouglass:
However there is almost a "circle" of people that set up the legal system to begin with. When you can't do ANYTHING in court without a lawyer, it almost seems like a legalized form of racketeering (at least to us common folk who don't know the legal system).

That is not correct. The legal system of pretty much every country in the World has developed over the past centuries from either the common law (based on Mediaval dicta) or the civil law (based on Napoleon) systems. In almost all other cases, a countries legal system has been borrowed from a colonial power. Laws have developed, not been established by a bunch of blokes saying, hey ho, we want lots of cash, let's do something to give us a job for life.

You can go to court without a lawyer. You can bring your own action, you can defend yourself. You simply need to get a textbook and understand the court procedural rules.In the US, you have the equivalent of our small claims court where you are encouraged, not to use lawyers. This applies from every court from your local town court, to the Supreme Court.

You dont need lawyers to go to court. That is your right. Lawyers are there if you want assistance in going to court.

As for legalised form of racketeering, anyone can be a lawyer if they take the exams, just as anyone can be a plumber if they do the course.

Originally posted by rdouglass:
So please don't try to argue that lawyers are the upstanding citizens that are wrongly persecuted when in fact the whole legal system in general very close to an "exclusive club". Remember the legal system dictates how virtually every other entity (private citizen, company, etc.) conducts its affairs.

Rdouglass, this really is a hugely generic statement. My argument certianly was not that lawyers are upstanding citizens that are wrongly accused, but that it is unfair to generically criticize all lawyers whereever they may be for the faults of one particular type of lawyer in one particular country.

As for the legal system being an "exclusive club", I just dont see that.

Originally posted by rdouglass:
This is just my opinion but also please remember that the majority of folks are NOT lawyers; American or otherwise and so we're not privy to all of the resources at YOUR disposal. To get at those we MUST go through you....

And yes, I did IT work for a Supreme COurt system and I do understand how judges and lawyers (and others in the system) are socially connected as well as professionally.

I am not privy to the art of IT, I do not understand plumbing, I am not a very good electrician, in order to obtain these services, I need to go through the appropriately ualified person, and utilise the resources at their disposal. Why should lawyers be any different. We are specialists in our respective fields, and it is that expertise that is the one commodity that we have to sell. What you appear to be suggesting is a denial of my right to make a living as a lawyer.

As to the remark on social connections, it may be different in the US but the old boys network is not exclusive to the legal community, and applies at all levels of business. I think it is unfair to say that we have some private club going, it is just not the case.

Just my 3.2 cents worth