[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by oleg:
Oh, Thermo, another historical fact that should surely hurt your stand that US won WWII fighting both Germany and USSR
- Tirpiz was forced to to return to its base after Soviet K-21 launched 4 torpedoes on it. Did it score ? - may be not, but Tirpitz returned to the base immediatly and never sailed again. But HM Admerals were so puked after Bismark affair that they decided to sacriface the whole convoy and save their "warships" - I put asterisk deliberatly because those HHS should lose that privelege endowned since Lord Nelson

Bloody Shame.

Well, let’s not argue, let’s call it a debate

To your first point, how would four destroyers have made a difference? The corvettes were little more than MTB’s without the torpedoes, and I doubt they could have survived long enough to even ram the Terpitz. And where was the Soviet Navy? IMHO, any allied ship that operated east of the North Cape in the summer of 42 did so at great risk. The western fleets were still sailing ships that were fitted out before airpower had advanced to the point of being accepted as a threat to war ships. They were ill equipped to fight off land based air in 1942.

To the second point, how is it that the USSR was in a position that one convoy of supplies would have made such a difference. And let’s face facts, the Soviet field armies that drove the Nazi bastards back to Berlin consumed more tonnage a week than was loaded on PQ 17. So to say that it would have made more than a temporary tactical difference would need a lot of supporting evidence.

Now before I say anything more, let me say that my animosity is directed at the Soviet government in general and at Stalin in this particular moment in history. The Russian people that I know personally are fine people. And I hold no animosity towards the people of Russia. But there are some facts that bring great weight to this debate.

Germany fielded the most skilled military organization that the world had ever known at the beginning of WW 2. Their understanding of maneuver exceeded that of any army in the world. This is due in great part to their understanding of why they failed in WW 1. And they were under the control of one of the four most evil Groups of men in modern history. The army of the USSR was something different. Its problems stem from the fact that it was controlled by one of the four most evil men of modern history. While Hitler and the Nazi’s killed more people in the years of Nazi rule, Stalin’s government killed many more, but over a longer period of time.

Also, I seem to recall that Hitler had a willing partner when he divided up Poland. This seems to be much ignored when WW 2 is debated. The USSR was a willing partner in the single event that triggered WW 2.

With Stalin’s track record up to that point, he is lucky that the west didn’t see the eastern front as a way of killing two birds with one stone. Aiding both sides just enough to ensure that they both shot their bolts.

And one more thing. What is this Great Patriotic War stuff? And what do the old Soviets call the invasion of Poland?

[ February 14, 2004, 01:32: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]