[primitive]

Originally posted by newbie123:

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Originally posted by primitive:

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Originally posted by Atrocities:
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If the French go then goes Europe.

(Just another mindless senseless rant courticy of Atrocities)

This France-bashing is getting even more stale than yesterdays baguettes

Its not the case of Europe (or France) going anywhere AT. Europe is old, Europe is stable, Europe knows when diplomacy works better than force. If USA and Europe (continues to) drift apart, its the US who do the drifting. Get rid of that warmongering president of yours and USA and Europe will be best buddies again. Its all up to you

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Sorry but thats BS. Europe know when to quit diplomacy with hitler. Instead they gave him a more powerful position and the rest is history. as far as stable, I don't think the US is unstable. I might not be following you on this tho. To be fair, I believe there are equal amounts of blame on both sides in regards to us drifting apart. Neither wants to reason

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Newb;
Thank you newb for the polite tone of your post. Kinda makes this much easier.
History is great, I suggest you study it a bit before you quote it and call my post for Bull****.

True, WWII was a diplomatic failure. But the mistake was not done in 1938-39, but in 1918 at the end of WWI. The emasculation of Germany made a rematch more or less inevitable. Sure; the buildup could be handled much better, but Chamberlain putting his foot down in 38 would not have stopped Hitler, it only would have made the war different. Better or worse, who knows ?

Most of the blame for the early failures in the war should be given to the prewar millitary planners in France (especially) and England. They totally missed 20 years of technological development and expected WWII to be a rerun of WWI. When the Blitzkrieg came, they was totally unprepared. The failure of the politicians was not lack of funding, but the lack of guts to remove the old WWI generals from power. But I disgress...

There was an importent lesson learned from the failure of 1918 that was remembered by the victors of WWII: However a war/conflict ends, make sure to not create a power vacuum when its over. This can either be done Stalins way; with an Iron fist, or the Roosevelt(Truman)/Churchill (or more correct Marshall) way; by rebuilding the concuered nations from the ground.

This lesson is still remembered by the Europeans (some 50 million deaths over 2 wars in 30 years leaves it mark). This is also why most Europeans did not support GWB's moronic invation of Iraq. Allthough getting rid of one mad dictator is a worthy cause, doing so without planning for a better alternative just makes things worse. GWB's feeble attempts at rebuilding is just patethic; It would have taken 10 times the amount money currently spent (not to mention spending it in Iraq instead of lining the pockets of his friends) to succed. The options left is either continious occupation the Stalin way or leaving creating the dreaded power vacuum which would probably be filled by some religious fanatic. Oups, I disgress again

Back to my point. Europe has not moved a bit. European policy is exactly as it was under Clinton (and before). Europe is still a strong supporter of the UN and of international law. When GWB decided to sidestep international law, he stepped away from Europe. When USA is ready to come back, they will be wellcome. Untill then; relationships suffers, the economies suffers (yours more than ours), the people of Iraq suffers and international terrorism continues to rise. Quite a legacy for one man.

Puke:
Sorry for hijacking the thread again (not really)

Atrocities:
Why would we want Kerry, he has not done anything wrong (yet). If we could get his wife and punish her for the sins of her family that would have been another matter. Forcing ketchup on the world must rank among the most hideous crimes ever

Dogscoff:
Its the Sweedes and the Danes, not all Scandinavians