[Simeron]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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Seperation of Church and State after all.

Which I find ever so amusing. We have prayer on the steps of the Capitol. Each and every offical in Washington is sworn in on a Bible or takes an oath "under God"

Not to mention that GwB manages to mention God in just about every other speech he makes. He seems to think he's on some kind of crusade to the holy land- if it wasn't so scary it would remind me of the Blues Brothers ("we're on a mission from God, Ma'am") and be funny.

Maybe I am out dated and out of touch

You said it, not me.

I certainly don't see the war in Iraq as a BAD thing.

How is it a GOOD thing? It has acheived nothing positive.

Sure, Saddam is out of the picture but as soon as the US hands over power to the locals they will elect some religious zealout who will turn Iraq into another Iran and the whole bloody thing will kick off once again.
You're looking at a brutal, vicious civil war between a half-dozen factions in that country within the decade and the west has made such a hash of it this time that they will be reluctant to get involved again, leaving them to their own devices... even though it's our fault.

On the other hand, the war killed tens of thousands, obliterated a country's infrastructure, tore up international law and co-operation and has generated huge amounts of anti-western sentiment in the middle east that will fuel international terrorism for decades to come. Is that not a BAD thing?

And the answer is that we are looked upon as the world's police force,

Oh are you? And who told you that? You really *are* out of touch aren't you. I for one don't look upon the US as the world's police force, I see it more as some kind of rogue cowboy who, after running the sherrif out of town and stealing his badge, is now riding around, shooting his mouth off and firing his guns at random. And I think you'll find I'm not alone in this view.

the Daily Mirror, an English newspaper that is normally rather left wing

Back in the seventies maybe. NOw it's just another reactionary right-wing, bandwagon-jumping media-conglomerate-owned rag that will print any old ****e that will sell. Your average leftie wouldn't wipe his arse on the mirror. There are no left wing tabloids in this country, and the closest we have to a left wing broadsheet is the independent or guardian.

Maybe Iraq didn't have direct ties to 9/11 and maybe they did.

Really? What about what you said earlier in your post? I quote:
"we also know for a fact that Saddam was funding Al Q and providing training bases within Iraq " and "If we had {got rid of Saddam 15 years ago} more then likely the Towers would still be standing"
Did they or didn't they? Are you sure or aren't you?

Please also read alarikf's post further down, and bear in mind his credentials. here's the relevent quote from his post: "here is a FACT that a person can choose to ignore at their peril: There was NO connection between 9/11 and Iraq. "

The FACT is, they had Al Q training camps in Northern Iraq.

The FACT is, IIRC, those al-qaeda training camps were in Kurd-controlled territory, and had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein.

Yes, he was a bastard, but he didn't bring down the twin towers. Saudi Arabians did.

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Well, first of all the contention that nothing positive has come from the war in Iraq is just plain wrong. Frankly, I can't believe you said that.

Saddam gone, millions free of a brutal dictator that had 5 year olds imprisoned, and you can't see anything positive that has come from the war?

As far as "anti western" sentiment in the middle east..geez, take your head out. Since WHEN did the middle east ever NOT have that? The "anti west" sentiment has been there since the CRUSADES, hell, even BEFORE as they came into Europe and sacked ROME.

Fuel terrorism? Poverty is a far better fuel then political retoric my friend. Its hard as hell to get someone to blow themselves up when they got a nice family, home and life to live for. But make it where they see nothing to live for and they will strap that bomb on thier back and nuke themselves.

Give the people a good education, a good shot at living rather then existing and you will do more to stop terrorism then a billion zealots can start.

As far as infrastructure...

Before the war 30% of the Iraqi people had running water in thier homes, now some 70% have it.

64% had electricity that was on MOST of the time, now 94% have it.

The roads were unsafe in the majority of the country, they are no longer save in "Hot Spots" that are cleared as quickly as possible.

Men, women and children were taken from their homes in the dead of night to be tortured, raped and killed in prisons by thugs on a routine basis, this is now the exception and there are forces that seek out these thugs and try to stop them by arrest or death.

HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS were being killed by the government of Saddam EACH YEAR. In the ENTIRE WAR EFFORT TO DATE we have not come CLOSE to that number if you add up ALL CASUALTIES on ALL SIDES.

And as for the government, I am so glad you are able to see the future. I seem to remember the same cow dung being flung when we took out the Taliban in Afganistan. I don't see this happening there so somehow, I don't see it happening in Iraq. Well, not unless the American forces are pulled out too soon due to "world opinion".

No..nothing good has come of it as you see.

Course, guess you're blind.../shrug.

As far as America being the world's policeman...

Who does everyone come to for money, military help, humanitarian aid? What country is the first to offer such things? The old USA. And when has the world ever come to help US?

WHO came to help us when we have natural disasters? Who sent help when we had the California earthquakes? The Mid West Floods? The Twin Towers being destroyed? Who sent help?

Nobody.

But when there was earthquakes in Turkey...America was there.

In Iran...there was the US helping within 24 hours.

Who dropped more FOOD and HUMANITARIAN supplies in Afganistan then bombs? Who made sure fresh food, water and other basic needs were there for the Iraqis? Who is still sending supplies to North Korea and other countries that have OPENLY STATED they hate the US?

No, I don't know WHERE I got the idea the US was the world's policeman. But let some hot spot flare up and the first military troops sent in from outside will have an AMERICAN flag on thier shoulders.

You may not be alone, hell, I sure know you aren't. But that just means you're in a crowd of people that don't have a clue, not that you're right.

Tell you what, let's see the US pull out its support from the world and find out just how long the old world can Last. And I mean the whole shebang baby...military, economic..the works.

The world economy is based on the US Dollar.

The US green back is accepted damn near everywhere, no other currency is.

As for the Al Q camps...we know for a fact Saddam was funding the camps. They were NOT in Kurd controlled territories. In fact, the imbedded reporter with the Kurds have HOURS of footage showing the camps well inside Iraqi controlled territory NEAR the Kurdish areas. Please at least get the facts right or close enough that its not blatantly obvious that you don't know what you are saying.

The camps were funded by AL Q and Saddam within the country. That's fact. As far as me saying "Maybe" that was a statement that even if you DON'T BELIEVE that fact, that it remains a fact.

As for MY background, suffice it to say I have Ultra clearance to this day. I have more information on what has been going on in Afganistan and Iraq then I really ever want from comrades on the ground in many, many different areas.

I am not saying alarikf's post is wrong. It is probably far more right then he is even leading people to believe in some areas but, I know for a fact that Saddam was helping Al Q with more then money.

As for who brought down the towers and killed thousands of innocents..it wasn't the Saudi Arabians..it was Al Q operatives who happen to be FROM that country.

But, I do blame SA for allowing the fundamentalist to grow in such power as to enable AL Q to continually get funding from people within thier country as well as more recruits because they refuse to use the billions of dollars they earn each year to help the average Saudi get a better life through a GOOD education (not a filtered one with blinders put on it by zealots).

Do I think the US should tell Saudi Arabia to either put up or take a hike? You betcha. Do I think the average Middle Eastern person hates the US...nope..not really. I think they are listening to the trash spouted on the controlled news outlets and are only given the information that would make any normal, sane person hate a country painted as bad as the US is continually painted.

And as for being old and out dated...

As the saying goes..if its not broke..don't fix it.

And if the US was really the "wild and wooly cowboy" you say, the world would be either a member of the US commonwealth or a smoking ruin.

Understand that there is only ONE superpower left in the world. The US has the ability to project its power where ever it desires. No other country can do that nor even come close.

As I said before, when the towers fell, the majority of the American people wanted blood for blood. It is a testament to the strength of this nation that instead of dropping the hammer on the entire Middle and Near East like the wrath of Almighty God we instead had leaders that remained calm and have slowly, painfully worked to seek out those that would do such horrible acts and stop them.

And it is also a sign of strength that our leaders were willing to do it regardless of the sudden loss of courage on the part of some of our so called "allies" when it became evident that we would find out about thier ILLEGAL dealings with the Iraqi regime.

Have American troops done things that they should feel saddened about...you bet. That is why war should be avoided.

Should they be ashamed...not in my book.