[Bard of Prey]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.

All of what you're thinking of so far sounds good. IMHO, the most important thing isn't the tools, it's getting the relevant data out of the code and into external files (text files usually being easiest). Dedicated modders will figure out ways to put it all together, and some will have enough programming experience to write their own utilities for installation and mod-switching, etc. (although it's always preferable if the devs do this themselves, especially for MP purposes).

In fact, if the tools themselves are slightly 'user unfriendly', this can actually have a beneficial effect on the overall quality of mods... you won't have hordes of neophytes releasing untested mods that they whipped out in 10 minutes with an editor, you'll have a smaller number of intelligent, dedicated people who produce quality work. Of course, there's no need to make things difficult on purpose, but there's not really a burning need to produce a slick program for it either.

One of the few things that MOO3 did (almost) right was to externalize just about everything in Excel-based tables, saved as .txt files. This allows anybody with a text editor to make whatever changes they like to the data. In many cases the structure even supports extending the tables, or even creating new ones with the right format. They also had a structure where the default game files were stored in compressed folders, and the program would look for similar files in uncompressed subfolders, and over-ride the defaults if it found any. This allows for easy installation and removal of mods without over-writing the main game files (especially handy for MP). For examples of the kinds of mods that are possible in a system like that, you might check out MOO3Mods.com.

The problem is, this kind of open-ended modding is easiest to implement if it's part of the original design... having no knowledge of how you've set up the current game code, I have no idea how easy it would be to put it in now, or in a patch.

As for which specific items to put in first, my personal preference is for a system that allows you to not only tweak stats, but also to add completely new elements to the game (which also includes the ability to change pretty much everything about the existing ones). In other words: new units (basically the capability that's already there, plus the ability to assign units to be buildable by certain nations/independents); new nations (and new themes for these, as well as for the standard nations); new spells; new items; new special dominon effects (assuming these are treated separately from themes); the ability to remove standard elements (pretty trivial to accomplish once the rest is done); new graphics (this isn't my personal main area of concern, but it might be necessary for new units and nations), etc. That's more or less in (my own) order of importance.

Obviously, I don't expect that all of this will be trivial to implement (or necessarily even possible at this point), but you did ask for wish-lists...

On the subject of whether to include 'moddability' or not in the first place, I think all the relevant arguments have already been made (and re-made, etc.). I will say that, from a publisher/developer point of view, modding only enhances the value of your product. It not only increases the initial appeal (it's a very nice thing to have on your list of features these days), but it greatly extends the lifespan of the product. Even well-designed programs benefit from the ability to be constantly refreshed by the input of new ideas (in fact, I'd say that they benefit even more than poorly-designed products that mods just can't save in the long run... I'll refrain from giving examples here... ).

From a player perspective, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy with the vanilla game, you can happily keep playing it as long as you like, and there's no need for you to even be aware that mods exist, secure in the knowledge that (for technical reasons) the vast majority of MP games will be played with the unmodded game anyway. If you have a hankering for a game with a different 'theme', but the same basic gameplay, then you can try out some mods, or build your own. The argument that the very existence of mods 'makes MP more difficult' is completely specious... it does no such thing. In fact, the opposite is true... the existence of MP makes modding more difficult, since odds are that the community as a whole will not want the same mod running, thus most MP games (at least those where you play large numbers of people, or total strangers) will have to be with the unmodded game. If there's a relatively simple means of installing mods, and of reverting to the default settings, then both needs are satisfied quite easily.

Sorry for the excessively long post, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart for a variety of reasons... I should point out though, that on the strength of what I've seen of Dom I, none of the above would be necessary for me to enjoy Dom II... but any of it would be more than welcome.

[Edit: I forgot to mention new Pretenders! Hopefully that was implied by the combination of new nations/new units... if not, then add them too... ]

[ September 28, 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: Bard of Prey ]