[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
[QUOTE

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re extra design points.

The point was relative to Dom1.

In Dom1 most races I designed had Order3/Luck1. I tried luck0 but never had the courage to play it in mutli-player due to concern over the horrific events you can get early in tests.

As an aside I think Johan underestimates the impact of losing population/gold early as the extra early gold is often the difference between expanding fast enough or going under. My experiance of MP suggests that early events (good or bad) have hugely disproportionate impact.

In Dom2 most races I design have order3/misfortune3. Thats 160 extra design ponts over Dom1 and that, in my estimation, is what makes the possibility of a wide range of bless effect races worth trying. Without the points only the most extreme temp races have enough points for the high level starting magic. Its not a question of quantative differrence in race power, as you suggest Jasper, but qualitiative - thats how the bless effects work. Its the level 9 ones the tend to matke the race desing viable or not. Got enough for the effects you need to make the troop type work - yay. Not enough and the race is simply lame. To me the difference in power between a tight race and a bitsa is not 10-20-30% but more like 50-150+% because of the way low casualty expansion feeds upon itself.

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I really do believe that a formalistic approach to balence which says that every feature should be individualy balenced with every other feature is just plain wrong. Its the overall balence and the possibilities this produces I'm concerned about and not wether certain options are necessary to get a good race. Does it really matter that much if most players take order 3 misfortune 3? I think the extra points from this creates ideas I don't think this strangles ideas. I do think, and have posted elsewhere, that cutting back the worst events is a good idea so I'm not adverse to any change and I am in favour of making turmoil/luck races viable. Its just that some of the changes recommmended would have disastrous implication on the overall balence.

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Keir

I will answer your post even if you withdraw from the discussion, that way you won't be able to make a witty rejoinder and I will get the Last word.

First of all I still think that the bad luck events are not that much of a problem, not compared with the income loss. The 66% income of turmoil 3 to order 3 dominates the effect of the badluck events themselves. So if order -3 luck +3 is less viable than order +3 luck -3 it is in my mind much more to the constant income loss rather than the effects of negative events. It is highly unlikely that bad events will come remotely close to having as much of a negative impact as the turmoil will. I hope this doesn't come out as sounding condescending, but I believe many dominions players tend to overestimate risk compared to predictable loss, many strategy players seem to be very averse to random factors and I think this is reflected in the negative press the badluck events get. The sense I get from much of the discussion is that players worry more about the hurricanes and floods than they do about the income loss from turmoil.

If I read you correctly your desire is for pretenders with strong bless effects to still be viable. They are so in your mind because viable scale settings are more affordable than they were in dom2. What I think is the problem with your argument is that if other scales were to be changed so that you percieved them as useful as the order scale you would feel compelled to raise them as well. The design points you get by using misfortune 3 you get because you do not consider misfortune 3 detrimental under order 3, you get 120 points for free. Your bless designs hinges on that it is just one scale you consider essential, order. If I shared your estimate of the situation I would draw the conclusion that I should call for more design points and toned down order. If one only made the other settings as useful as you seem to consider order I fail to see why you would not feel compelled to pour design points into them the same way you do with order.

I too wish to see people spending points on pretender magic and bless effects, but I do feel it is unfortunate if it becomes a no brainer to allways go with order +3 luck -3. Since so many players seem to consider order 3 a no brainer it is perhaps a good idea to reduce its effectiveness in some manner. If income is reduced this would cause grumblings in some quarters though. And if the other scales are toned up design points will once again be concentrated in scales rather than pretender magic, which I, and apparantly you as well, do not not desire.

I have more to add but I do not have the time at the moment, so this will have to do for now.

[ November 25, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: johan osterman ]