[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

- CotS costs 25 more points

True, Fires of Faith costs 50 Points and Diabolical Faith costs 0. Diabolical Faith has forced Turmoil.

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Both of them are weaker than standard and CotS. Wanted to point out the difference between those two here.

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- CotS lost most of its ability to generate extra early income through alchemy

1/4 the Ability to be exact.

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Nope, it lost 3/4 (produces only 1 fire gem instead of 4). That's why I wrote 'most'.

And Fire gems are worth what 15 gold? (Without items that is). So a net loss of 45 Gold per turn (if you always alchemize.

I wrote 'lost the option to...', not 'lost 45 gold'. Early it may give you an edge, typically claiming mercs for yourself.

What you get is 2 Air, +1 Astral for that 45 Gold. Air has quite a few uses with summons/spells. And astral is good for forging, but yes probably an overall 'weaker'. Which is fine.

Fine yes - except it won't help you getting those early mercs.

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- Lost the wonderful flaming crossbows (Wind Guide is not nearly as effective, besides it's easier for the other Marignon themes to find air-1 mages to cast Wind Guide, it's much harder for CotS to find fire-2 mages for Flaming Arrows)

Uh, Royal Navigators have 1 random, getting 1 Earth is fairly easy and then you can make a Crystal Matrix, throw that on a High (or normal) Inquisitor ... You don't lose anything. Most of the time you are running a communion anyway and throwing in an Inquisitor isn't alot of work. It doesn't have the 'instant' access. But I use Flaming Xbows just as much as before. What you do lose is the ability to cast very many rituals like Fires from Afar or Summer Lions (if you wished.

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With Marignon my early expansion relies on mass crossbows. Thus I beeline for Enchantment 4, period. No time to lose researching construction to get these matrices, and wait for the right Navigator to forge them. I want Flaming Arrows by turn 10 or close. Later than that is too late for me.

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- Diabolical Faith has access to Mind Duel-proof communion.

Yes, which is one good thing it has in it's favor. It has quite a bit against it though (while still being fun, I admit).

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Fun yes. And thanks to alchemy, can up its initial from ~160 to ~220, and remain competitive in the first 10 turns with the Order+3 nations - losing 4 gems in the process but with the benefits of Luck+3.

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- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires.

I enjoy the synergy between Air and Astral for the fact of Orb Lightning, Paralyze, Astral Healing, Antimagic, Stellar Cascades, etc.

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All of them but Orb Lightning are accessible to the standard theme. Orb Lightning doesn't require astral, so where's the synergy? Orb Lightning can be totally negated. Orb Lighning is Evocation 5 and requires only 1 air, by the time you get it it's often available by other means than expensive Navigator or Grand Masters who have better things to than cast level-1 spells. The list of independent mages who can give your air-1 for less than 200 gold is quite impressive. Astral Fires OTOH is hard to resist and not as readily available as Orb Lightning on independent mages, and with Marignon I like to have this spell readily available to deal with certains threats.

With the Chartmaker being 90 gold vs a Witch Hunter 150 gold he's a cheap communion slave. Also base Marignon it costs 270 to try to get a Random pick while 200 with CotS.

Combine that with the fact they can quickstrike over water and IMO I feel they are much more versatile and adaptable than Base, Fires of Faith, and unless the Harliquin or Turmoil is tweaked with Diabolic Faith.

Yep, communion and seafaring are nice to have, but I doubt they'll help you expand as fast as Flaming Arrows. Conqueror is a good theme, as good as the main theme. But you failed to convince me it's _DRASTICALLY_ superior to the main theme - and that's all I wanted to point out.

[Edit: typos]

[ January 13, 2004, 21:28: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]