[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Just ot repeat some things I said earlier as they seem out of keeping with much of the opinion being expressed and I'd like to know why.

1.Turmoil3/luck3 is not suicidial

As I understand it nothing has changed about this option with the patch and in my experiance it works for some races - just not as well as order/misfortune used to. I have played many test games with this combo using races like Tuatha, BK and S&A and have only once seen my capital hit big time. Thats playing events commen.

It's not suicidal but it may force you into a slow start, unless you get lucky early.

One thing to note with S&A though, you get quite a few free gems from luck, which a magically powerful nation could use. But turmoil cuts into your CM recruiting income.

2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved. I find it hard to imagine taking this set of scales in MP yet most seem to assume its still the norm and some have expressed the idea you would be silly not to which I really doubt to be the case. It may be this is a entirely viable option but it needs to be tested.

I would like to hear alot more on this one as I'm working on the War of the Ring mod and have no time for testing.

The reason order/misfortune was "bad" in Dom I was that you didn't need order to tax at 200% wherever you felt like it - it was just slightly convenient to have order. Now that tax/patrol abuses are a thing of the past, order's gold bonus looms larger.

You get the standard event frequency, but most events are bad. But you get +21% income from those provinces that haven't been overrun by barbarians or vinemen, flooded, stricken with the plague etc. I don't know whether this is a worthwhile tradeoff for 0 points - but some themes have to take order, and now one theme has to take misfortune, so in at least those cases it might work out.

3. Order3/luck0 would seem the new norm.

If point 2 above is true then this is what alot of people are going to go for. It costs 120 design points more then turmoil/luck and will be stronger even though its not as strong as it was and wasn't chosen often previously.

While Turmoil/luck has not improved order has got worse which makes turmoil/luck stronger.

IMO it would be more accurate to say that misfortune has gotten worse, not order. Order3/luck0 isn't significantly worse than it was before; it has slightly more events but they are still (theoretically) balanced. But order no longer covers up the bad effect of misfortune as much.

I don't think that order 3 luck 0 will necessarily become a standard. The benefits of order are potent but 120 nation points is a lot, especially if your nation needs lots of supplies, or high dominion strength, or fast research, or you are playing a theme that costs points, or your nation relies on sacred troops and needs a good blessing, or... there are always more good ways to spend nation points than there are nation points to spend on them.

Temperature is a no-brainer for certain nations. Any other scale you have to think about, unless your theme requires a +3 setting.

I like this.

I'm a little suprised that alot of people seem to have written off the value of the changes to order/luck scales and are working on their own yet I have still seen no sign of a thorough test of the new scales. If the patch has been ineffective I'd like to see this demonstrated not just claimed. Feedback from games played under the new system is the key.

(snip)

With all the changes already in the patch (two new themes, balance and bug fixes) and more in the works (I heard there is a 3rd underwater nation on the drawing board, from the screenshot it looks like a nation of tritons! I hope they have mages whose standard magical abilities allow for Amulet of the Fish...), I'm reluctant to jump into modding immediately (either making my own or playing someone else's). I want to give Illwinter's Version some more time first.