[PvK]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Yes the Mictlani commanders are wonderfully cheap (sacred, for half upkeep cost) for cannonfodder leadership and generation too (free slave spear-carriers).

PvK

True. Too bad they have nothing half decent to lead. It would be nice if the Slaves could distract your opponent's troops while your good troops hit him in the flank or rear - but Mictlan doesn't HAVE any good troops.

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I use blessed/cheap Sun Warriors (85% maintenance cost of an indy HI) as my main army body. Slaves on distraction detail with a feathered warrior or two with them to keep them in the field longer. No really good troops to hit flank and rear? Meet my blessed Eagle Warriors, fiends of darkness, and/or my growing horde of Devils led by an item-bedecked heroic devil commander.

I'm particularly disappointed by the Jaguar Warriors - they seem like a good idea, but in practice, they rarely even survive the first hit to become were jaguars, and almost never survive more than one round in were jaguar form. They have bad defense, worse protection and low hit points - for 20 gold!

I don't like the Jaguar Warriors that much, but I might if I tailored my blessings for them. I prefer Sun Warriors and Eagle Warriors, but even the 20-gold Jags are only as expensive to maintain as a normal indy HI.

Maybe if Mictlan had a god that could get to Air 6+, Water 9 for reasonable cost, Jaguar Warriors could survive for more than one or two rounds - but who wants to invest heavily in Water magic while taking a heat scale (or at all, for that matter)? And in any case, Mictlan has no troops whatsoever that can damage prot 15+ without a strong Blood blessing. They need falchions, or glaives, or tridents, or SOMETHING that can damage a Hoplite. Why don't they have some of the copper-armored warriors using Obsidian Swords? It wouldn't be much, but a Mictlan Warrior with copper armor, javelin, and Obsidian Sword instead of spear would be worth making.

Fair point, and a good idea. I've been doing fine (though against the AI) with what I've been up to, though. I haven't had to try to fight many well-armored troops without using demons. Blood blessing does increase strength (IIRC - I know my blessed units get a good strength bonus from something) which does give harder-hitting blessed units.

I've seen armies of 100+ Mictlan troops (ok, that's counting the slaves, but still, 500+ gold worth of actual troops) get routed by ten Heavy Cavalry, and kill only 1, maybe 2 of them. Slings, javelins and spears just aren't going to cut it against Prot 19 - but if you can't come up with something against HI and HC even in small numbers, you can't even expand against low indy strengths, unless you luck out on the types of indies.

I managed to beat indies pretty easily, by having blessed Eagle Warriors and Fiends fly into the enemy rear and panic them and/or wipe out their commanders.

Ultra-slow expansion (take one province, spend 3-4 turns making another army because the first one was wiped out in the battle, repeat) is not a good way to build up a blood economy (already more difficult in Dom II than it was in Dom I).

Was not a problem for me, as I just mentioned. What kept me in my corner was C'tis and Pangaea attacking me at the same time early in the game, having no good indy provinces nearby, and being unwilling to get my main army diseased by miasma as I figured out what the working techniques were for Mictlan.

As mentioned before, Mictlan is tricky but not weak. It is definitely not Ulm, nor is it Arco. Yes it doesn't work to just hire its non-sacred HI and march it directly forward, but other things can work.

To make Mictlan a bit more playable without taking away too much from their uniqueness:
* Lower the cost of the 4 main priests. Mictlan relies heavily on its priests and they are fantastically expensive. Compare the Theurg, Witch Hunter, and Avalon witches for example - all of which come from nations with average or above average military units.

Yes the priests are very expensive. However, I'm not sure that isn't intended as a balance.

* Warriors with Obsidian Swords in addition to the spear-carrying ones. Great Clubs (like the ones shamblers and trolls use, don't those have about 7 damage?) would be nice too, without breaking the low tech theme.

Sounds good to me!

* Jaguar Warriors need higher skills, especially defense, to have any chance of being useful. Even against an army with no missiles they die very quickly.

Yes, I haven't been tempted to use them, though I haven't analyzed them and the bless possibilities. Seems like they would be better if they were more skilled (and they could be more expensive). Maybe if they were base-skill (before equipment) Attack-11/Defense-13 and cost say 25... or whatever they "should" cost at that skill level.

* A national summon that is a cheap demon that can be summoned for 1 blood/1 slave, like DF Marignon's Harlequin (not necessarily flying though - something like a weaker Spine Devil would be good too). The current pre-researched summons are OK, but costs and requirements are too high to allow them to be used in early expansion.

I'd like to see that sort of addition, too.

Stil, I found 2-4 fiends combined with blessed Eagle Warriors, and some standard Mictlan troops and slaves to feint, was effective defeating indies in the early game (available by turn 2-3).

* If Mictlan is going to be stuck with very weak, extremely vulnerable troops, at least let them have a lot of them. More starting troops (at least 50) and lower gold costs on the troops they do have (6 for the no-armor, 7 for the light armor and 8 for the copper armor - maybe 11-12 for feathered warriors).

More starting troops would be welcome. Compared to other Dominions troops though, they are pretty cheap (9, or 15/17/20 sacred), considering a lot of them are sacred (half maintenance), including the cheapo commander and priests.

I do agree with your costs, but only in the context that ALL Dominions light/medium infantry seems to be ineffective for the cost. So I would apply the same kind of cost reductions to all light/medium infantry in the game, AND/OR change the game mechanics to make them better at avoiding getting killed by heavy forces, AND/OR change the AI so that light/medium troops tend to avoid heavy enemy mobs and sneak around to rear or effectively skirmish or something. That is, I think the balance comment applies to all light troops in the game.

PvK