April 2nd, 2004, 12:15 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 510
Thanks: 24
Thanked 31 Times in 12 Posts
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Re: The next patch
Quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It takes about 50 turns to go from a 5 astral income with no water to having 100 clams, assuming that absolutely no other site searching is done.
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No, it does not.... It takes 69 rounds  In 50 rounds you reach a mere 40 clams according to my astal calculator (or 87 if you assume a 25% forge bonus).
The greatest limitations on astral clam abuse remain the need for sufficient water 2 mages and not using your gems for other purposes.
Personally, I think the other players have failed in a major way if one nation is able to survive without using a significant fraction of its gems each round but perhaps that is just me.
Anyhow, I must certainly agree with Graeme Dice that it is potentially abusive in a major way in long term games. Just look at this output from the astral calculator using a 25% forge bonus and a base income of 5 astral and nothing else whatsoever, if you are in doubt:
[Actually, there is a bug in the following, as it only costs 14 astral per clam due to the water price being rounded to 7 rather than 7.5 per clam]
code:
Astral Calculator
Calculating Astral Clam abuse based on 5 base astal income and a
25 forge bonus (15 astral per clam) wasting 0 percent of surplus per turn
0: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 5 --> Produced 0 clams
1: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 10 --> Produced 0 clams
2: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 1 clams
3: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 5 --> Produced 0 clams
4: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 11 --> Produced 0 clams
5: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 17 --> Produced 1 clams
6: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 8 --> Produced 0 clams
7: Clams= 2 Income= 7 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 1 clams
8: Clams= 2 Income= 7 Waste= 0 Store= 7 --> Produced 0 clams
9: Clams= 3 Income= 8 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 1 clams
10: Clams= 3 Income= 8 Waste= 0 Store= 8 --> Produced 0 clams
11: Clams= 4 Income= 9 Waste= 0 Store= 17 --> Produced 1 clams
12: Clams= 4 Income= 9 Waste= 0 Store= 11 --> Produced 0 clams
13: Clams= 5 Income= 10 Waste= 0 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
14: Clams= 5 Income= 10 Waste= 0 Store= 16 --> Produced 1 clams
15: Clams= 6 Income= 11 Waste= 0 Store= 12 --> Produced 0 clams
16: Clams= 7 Income= 12 Waste= 0 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
17: Clams= 7 Income= 12 Waste= 0 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
18: Clams= 8 Income= 13 Waste= 0 Store= 19 --> Produced 1 clams
19: Clams= 9 Income= 14 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 1 clams
20: Clams= 10 Income= 15 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 1 clams
21: Clams= 11 Income= 16 Waste= 0 Store= 19 --> Produced 1 clams
22: Clams= 12 Income= 17 Waste= 0 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
23: Clams= 13 Income= 18 Waste= 0 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
24: Clams= 14 Income= 19 Waste= 0 Store= 28 --> Produced 1 clams
25: Clams= 15 Income= 20 Waste= 0 Store= 33 --> Produced 2 clams
26: Clams= 16 Income= 21 Waste= 0 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
27: Clams= 18 Income= 23 Waste= 0 Store= 32 --> Produced 2 clams
28: Clams= 19 Income= 24 Waste= 0 Store= 26 --> Produced 1 clams
29: Clams= 21 Income= 26 Waste= 0 Store= 37 --> Produced 2 clams
30: Clams= 22 Income= 27 Waste= 0 Store= 34 --> Produced 2 clams
31: Clams= 24 Income= 29 Waste= 0 Store= 33 --> Produced 2 clams
32: Clams= 26 Income= 31 Waste= 0 Store= 34 --> Produced 2 clams
33: Clams= 28 Income= 33 Waste= 0 Store= 37 --> Produced 2 clams
34: Clams= 30 Income= 35 Waste= 0 Store= 42 --> Produced 2 clams
35: Clams= 32 Income= 37 Waste= 0 Store= 49 --> Produced 3 clams
36: Clams= 34 Income= 39 Waste= 0 Store= 43 --> Produced 2 clams
37: Clams= 37 Income= 42 Waste= 0 Store= 55 --> Produced 3 clams
38: Clams= 39 Income= 44 Waste= 0 Store= 54 --> Produced 3 clams
39: Clams= 42 Income= 47 Waste= 0 Store= 56 --> Produced 3 clams
40: Clams= 45 Income= 50 Waste= 0 Store= 61 --> Produced 4 clams
41: Clams= 48 Income= 53 Waste= 0 Store= 54 --> Produced 3 clams
42: Clams= 52 Income= 57 Waste= 0 Store= 66 --> Produced 4 clams
43: Clams= 55 Income= 60 Waste= 0 Store= 66 --> Produced 4 clams
44: Clams= 59 Income= 64 Waste= 0 Store= 70 --> Produced 4 clams
45: Clams= 63 Income= 68 Waste= 0 Store= 78 --> Produced 5 clams
46: Clams= 67 Income= 72 Waste= 0 Store= 75 --> Produced 5 clams
47: Clams= 72 Income= 77 Waste= 0 Store= 77 --> Produced 5 clams
48: Clams= 77 Income= 82 Waste= 0 Store= 84 --> Produced 5 clams
49: Clams= 82 Income= 87 Waste= 0 Store= 96 --> Produced 6 clams
50: Clams= 87 Income= 92 Waste= 0 Store= 98 --> Produced 6 clams
51: Clams= 93 Income= 98 Waste= 0 Store= 106 --> Produced 7 clams
52: Clams= 99 Income= 104 Waste= 0 Store= 105 --> Produced 7 clams
53: Clams= 106 Income= 111 Waste= 0 Store= 111 --> Produced 7 clams
54: Clams= 113 Income= 118 Waste= 0 Store= 124 --> Produced 8 clams
55: Clams= 120 Income= 125 Waste= 0 Store= 129 --> Produced 8 clams
56: Clams= 128 Income= 133 Waste= 0 Store= 142 --> Produced 9 clams
57: Clams= 136 Income= 141 Waste= 0 Store= 148 --> Produced 9 clams
58: Clams= 145 Income= 150 Waste= 0 Store= 163 --> Produced 10 clams
59: Clams= 154 Income= 159 Waste= 0 Store= 172 --> Produced 11 clams
60: Clams= 164 Income= 169 Waste= 0 Store= 176 --> Produced 11 clams
61: Clams= 175 Income= 180 Waste= 0 Store= 191 --> Produced 12 clams
62: Clams= 186 Income= 191 Waste= 0 Store= 202 --> Produced 13 clams
63: Clams= 198 Income= 203 Waste= 0 Store= 210 --> Produced 14 clams
64: Clams= 211 Income= 216 Waste= 0 Store= 216 --> Produced 14 clams
65: Clams= 225 Income= 230 Waste= 0 Store= 236 --> Produced 15 clams
66: Clams= 239 Income= 244 Waste= 0 Store= 255 --> Produced 17 clams
67: Clams= 254 Income= 259 Waste= 0 Store= 259 --> Produced 17 clams
68: Clams= 271 Income= 276 Waste= 0 Store= 280 --> Produced 18 clams
69: Clams= 288 Income= 293 Waste= 0 Store= 303 --> Produced 20 clams
70: Clams= 306 Income= 311 Waste= 0 Store= 314 --> Produced 20 clams
71: Clams= 326 Income= 331 Waste= 0 Store= 345 --> Produced 23 clams
72: Clams= 346 Income= 351 Waste= 0 Store= 351 --> Produced 23 clams
73: Clams= 369 Income= 374 Waste= 0 Store= 380 --> Produced 25 clams
74: Clams= 392 Income= 397 Waste= 0 Store= 402 --> Produced 26 clams
75: Clams= 417 Income= 422 Waste= 0 Store= 434 --> Produced 28 clams
76: Clams= 443 Income= 448 Waste= 0 Store= 462 --> Produced 30 clams
77: Clams= 471 Income= 476 Waste= 0 Store= 488 --> Produced 32 clams
78: Clams= 501 Income= 506 Waste= 0 Store= 514 --> Produced 34 clams
79: Clams= 533 Income= 538 Waste= 0 Store= 542 --> Produced 36 clams
80: Clams= 567 Income= 572 Waste= 0 Store= 574 --> Produced 38 clams
81: Clams= 603 Income= 608 Waste= 0 Store= 612 --> Produced 40 clams
82: Clams= 641 Income= 646 Waste= 0 Store= 658 --> Produced 43 clams
83: Clams= 681 Income= 686 Waste= 0 Store= 699 --> Produced 46 clams
84: Clams= 724 Income= 729 Waste= 0 Store= 738 --> Produced 49 clams
85: Clams= 770 Income= 775 Waste= 0 Store= 778 --> Produced 51 clams
86: Clams= 819 Income= 824 Waste= 0 Store= 837 --> Produced 55 clams
87: Clams= 870 Income= 875 Waste= 0 Store= 887 --> Produced 59 clams
88: Clams= 925 Income= 930 Waste= 0 Store= 932 --> Produced 62 clams
89: Clams= 984 Income= 989 Waste= 0 Store= 991 --> Produced 66 clams
90: Clams=1046 Income=1051 Waste= 0 Store=1052 --> Produced 70 clams
91: Clams=1112 Income=1117 Waste= 0 Store=1119 --> Produced 74 clams
92: Clams=1182 Income=1187 Waste= 0 Store=1196 --> Produced 79 clams
93: Clams=1256 Income=1261 Waste= 0 Store=1272 --> Produced 84 clams
94: Clams=1335 Income=1340 Waste= 0 Store=1352 --> Produced 90 clams
95: Clams=1419 Income=1424 Waste= 0 Store=1426 --> Produced 95 clams
96: Clams=1509 Income=1514 Waste= 0 Store=1515 --> Produced 101 clams
97: Clams=1604 Income=1609 Waste= 0 Store=1609 --> Produced 107 clams
98: Clams=1705 Income=1710 Waste= 0 Store=1714 --> Produced 114 clams
99: Clams=1812 Income=1817 Waste= 0 Store=1821 --> Produced 121 clams
100: Clams=1926 Income=1931 Waste= 0 Store=1937 --> Produced 129 clams
That was scary! 
Let us make it less so. Assuming that 50% of all astral gems stored above those needed to make a single clam are "wasted" on other types of magic and that no Dwarven hammers whatsoever are made (utopian, but let us assume it for a moment), we get (still based on only the starting income and nothing else)
code:
Astral Calculator
Calculating Astral Clam abuse based on 5 base astal income and a
0 forge bonus (20 astral per clam) wasting 50 percent of surplus per turn
0: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 5 --> Produced 0 clams
1: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 10 --> Produced 0 clams
2: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 0 clams
3: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 20 --> Produced 1 clams
4: Clams= 0 Income= 5 Waste= 0 Store= 5 --> Produced 0 clams
5: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 11 --> Produced 0 clams
6: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 17 --> Produced 0 clams
7: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 1 Store= 22 --> Produced 1 clams
8: Clams= 1 Income= 6 Waste= 0 Store= 8 --> Produced 0 clams
9: Clams= 2 Income= 7 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 0 clams
10: Clams= 2 Income= 7 Waste= 1 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
11: Clams= 2 Income= 7 Waste= 0 Store= 8 --> Produced 0 clams
12: Clams= 3 Income= 8 Waste= 0 Store= 16 --> Produced 0 clams
13: Clams= 3 Income= 8 Waste= 2 Store= 22 --> Produced 1 clams
14: Clams= 3 Income= 8 Waste= 0 Store= 10 --> Produced 0 clams
15: Clams= 4 Income= 9 Waste= 0 Store= 19 --> Produced 0 clams
16: Clams= 4 Income= 9 Waste= 4 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
17: Clams= 4 Income= 9 Waste= 0 Store= 13 --> Produced 0 clams
18: Clams= 5 Income= 10 Waste= 1 Store= 22 --> Produced 1 clams
19: Clams= 5 Income= 10 Waste= 0 Store= 12 --> Produced 0 clams
20: Clams= 6 Income= 11 Waste= 1 Store= 22 --> Produced 1 clams
21: Clams= 6 Income= 11 Waste= 0 Store= 13 --> Produced 0 clams
22: Clams= 7 Income= 12 Waste= 2 Store= 23 --> Produced 1 clams
23: Clams= 7 Income= 12 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 0 clams
24: Clams= 8 Income= 13 Waste= 4 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
25: Clams= 8 Income= 13 Waste= 0 Store= 17 --> Produced 0 clams
26: Clams= 9 Income= 14 Waste= 5 Store= 26 --> Produced 1 clams
27: Clams= 9 Income= 14 Waste= 0 Store= 20 --> Produced 1 clams
28: Clams= 10 Income= 15 Waste= 0 Store= 15 --> Produced 0 clams
29: Clams= 11 Income= 16 Waste= 5 Store= 26 --> Produced 1 clams
30: Clams= 11 Income= 16 Waste= 1 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
31: Clams= 12 Income= 17 Waste= 0 Store= 18 --> Produced 0 clams
32: Clams= 13 Income= 18 Waste= 8 Store= 28 --> Produced 1 clams
33: Clams= 13 Income= 18 Waste= 3 Store= 23 --> Produced 1 clams
34: Clams= 14 Income= 19 Waste= 1 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
35: Clams= 15 Income= 20 Waste= 0 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
36: Clams= 16 Income= 21 Waste= 1 Store= 21 --> Produced 1 clams
37: Clams= 17 Income= 22 Waste= 1 Store= 22 --> Produced 1 clams
38: Clams= 18 Income= 23 Waste= 2 Store= 23 --> Produced 1 clams
39: Clams= 19 Income= 24 Waste= 3 Store= 24 --> Produced 1 clams
40: Clams= 20 Income= 25 Waste= 4 Store= 25 --> Produced 1 clams
41: Clams= 21 Income= 26 Waste= 5 Store= 26 --> Produced 1 clams
42: Clams= 22 Income= 27 Waste= 6 Store= 27 --> Produced 1 clams
43: Clams= 23 Income= 28 Waste= 7 Store= 28 --> Produced 1 clams
44: Clams= 24 Income= 29 Waste= 8 Store= 29 --> Produced 1 clams
45: Clams= 25 Income= 30 Waste= 9 Store= 30 --> Produced 1 clams
46: Clams= 26 Income= 31 Waste= 10 Store= 31 --> Produced 1 clams
47: Clams= 27 Income= 32 Waste= 11 Store= 32 --> Produced 1 clams
48: Clams= 28 Income= 33 Waste= 12 Store= 33 --> Produced 1 clams
49: Clams= 29 Income= 34 Waste= 13 Store= 34 --> Produced 1 clams
50: Clams= 30 Income= 35 Waste= 14 Store= 35 --> Produced 1 clams
51: Clams= 31 Income= 36 Waste= 15 Store= 36 --> Produced 1 clams
52: Clams= 32 Income= 37 Waste= 16 Store= 37 --> Produced 1 clams
53: Clams= 33 Income= 38 Waste= 17 Store= 38 --> Produced 1 clams
54: Clams= 34 Income= 39 Waste= 18 Store= 39 --> Produced 1 clams
55: Clams= 35 Income= 40 Waste= 19 Store= 40 --> Produced 2 clams
56: Clams= 36 Income= 41 Waste= 10 Store= 31 --> Produced 1 clams
57: Clams= 38 Income= 43 Waste= 17 Store= 37 --> Produced 1 clams
58: Clams= 39 Income= 44 Waste= 20 Store= 41 --> Produced 2 clams
59: Clams= 40 Income= 45 Waste= 13 Store= 33 --> Produced 1 clams
60: Clams= 42 Income= 47 Waste= 20 Store= 40 --> Produced 2 clams
61: Clams= 43 Income= 48 Waste= 14 Store= 34 --> Produced 1 clams
62: Clams= 45 Income= 50 Waste= 22 Store= 42 --> Produced 2 clams
63: Clams= 46 Income= 51 Waste= 16 Store= 37 --> Produced 1 clams
64: Clams= 48 Income= 53 Waste= 25 Store= 45 --> Produced 2 clams
65: Clams= 49 Income= 54 Waste= 19 Store= 40 --> Produced 2 clams
66: Clams= 51 Income= 56 Waste= 18 Store= 38 --> Produced 1 clams
67: Clams= 53 Income= 58 Waste= 28 Store= 48 --> Produced 2 clams
68: Clams= 54 Income= 59 Waste= 23 Store= 44 --> Produced 2 clams
69: Clams= 56 Income= 61 Waste= 22 Store= 43 --> Produced 2 clams
70: Clams= 58 Income= 63 Waste= 23 Store= 43 --> Produced 2 clams
71: Clams= 60 Income= 65 Waste= 24 Store= 44 --> Produced 2 clams
72: Clams= 62 Income= 67 Waste= 25 Store= 46 --> Produced 2 clams
73: Clams= 64 Income= 69 Waste= 27 Store= 48 --> Produced 2 clams
74: Clams= 66 Income= 71 Waste= 29 Store= 50 --> Produced 2 clams
75: Clams= 68 Income= 73 Waste= 31 Store= 52 --> Produced 2 clams
76: Clams= 70 Income= 75 Waste= 33 Store= 54 --> Produced 2 clams
77: Clams= 72 Income= 77 Waste= 35 Store= 56 --> Produced 2 clams
78: Clams= 74 Income= 79 Waste= 37 Store= 58 --> Produced 2 clams
79: Clams= 76 Income= 81 Waste= 39 Store= 60 --> Produced 3 clams
80: Clams= 78 Income= 83 Waste= 31 Store= 52 --> Produced 2 clams
81: Clams= 81 Income= 86 Waste= 39 Store= 59 --> Produced 2 clams
82: Clams= 83 Income= 88 Waste= 43 Store= 64 --> Produced 3 clams
83: Clams= 85 Income= 90 Waste= 37 Store= 57 --> Produced 2 clams
84: Clams= 88 Income= 93 Waste= 45 Store= 65 --> Produced 3 clams
85: Clams= 90 Income= 95 Waste= 40 Store= 60 --> Produced 3 clams
86: Clams= 93 Income= 98 Waste= 39 Store= 59 --> Produced 2 clams
87: Clams= 96 Income= 101 Waste= 50 Store= 70 --> Produced 3 clams
88: Clams= 98 Income= 103 Waste= 46 Store= 67 --> Produced 3 clams
89: Clams= 101 Income= 106 Waste= 46 Store= 67 --> Produced 3 clams
90: Clams= 104 Income= 109 Waste= 48 Store= 68 --> Produced 3 clams
91: Clams= 107 Income= 112 Waste= 50 Store= 70 --> Produced 3 clams
92: Clams= 110 Income= 115 Waste= 52 Store= 73 --> Produced 3 clams
93: Clams= 113 Income= 118 Waste= 55 Store= 76 --> Produced 3 clams
94: Clams= 116 Income= 121 Waste= 58 Store= 79 --> Produced 3 clams
95: Clams= 119 Income= 124 Waste= 61 Store= 82 --> Produced 4 clams
96: Clams= 122 Income= 127 Waste= 54 Store= 75 --> Produced 3 clams
97: Clams= 126 Income= 131 Waste= 63 Store= 83 --> Produced 4 clams
98: Clams= 129 Income= 134 Waste= 58 Store= 79 --> Produced 3 clams
99: Clams= 133 Income= 138 Waste= 68 Store= 89 --> Produced 4 clams
100: Clams= 136 Income= 141 Waste= 65 Store= 85 --> Produced 4 clams
As far as I am concerned, that just means that nations with easy access to both water and astral magic must be hammered frequently to force them to use their astral for other things than astral abuse - for the numbers are potentially scary. 
[ April 02, 2004, 10:50: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]
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