I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates. As well, I would think that certain unbalanced strats would be negated but only by the fact that beta-testers are consistently and coherently able to pursue advanced strategies and tactics. The game might still be unbalanced for the vast majority of players even if a group of skilled beta-testers is able to get around an inbalance.
However, as far as the VQ is concerned, and much like the previous discussions on clams (and one would expect the same w/ a discussion on castling), too many people seem to think they know what they are talking about when they obviously do not. The problem is not clams as they occurred in that game you played w/ your brother yesterday, or the VQ you designed w/ 8 blood playing vanheim; the problem is in the extreme variants that can be created.
The canonical VQ uber-pretender is Norfleet's philinnon. She has the same name every game since Norfleet has no need to ever redesign her. She starts off w/ 400 pts in paths, above the 110 pt cost for the chassis. This is easy to afford w/ Ermor, though actually he hasn't had much difficulty using her w/ Caelum or Mictlan either.
The use of castles makes his territory almost invulnerable in the early/mid game. Frankly, I'm not sure i've ever seen him lose a castle as Ermor: the problem being, that once one has a sufficiently strong force to perhaps deal w/ his VQ (in your dreams, at least), he will have gateway and the like, so not only does your besieging army have to be prepared to take out an uber VQ, it must also be equally prepared to take out a huge magically tricked-out conventional force, and/or a large body of summons. As he sees fit, since you have to wait around for the turn to break down the walls.
By this time, clamming has probably led to chain casting of wishes. Chain casting them by turn 40 would seem to be quite possible. "magic power"X4 or 5, + "power" i believe. then start summoning more vampire queens. rinse, repeat.
As well, you are having to deal w/ serious dominion push, since all his territories have the castle/temple combo. good luck w/ that. In one game, as r'lyeh, he had at least 23+ castles by turn 21 or so. that's not unusual.
catquiet may be copying these undoubtably effective tactics, i'm not sure, since the only game i've played w/ him he had a phoenix.
Weeks ago when I was feeling frustrated by this combo tactic the only response I got from veterans (Zen) was that I must be a total noob. No doubt I was (and am), but that he was unable to give concrete counters was pretty telling.
Now, at least a number of people have had real experience of this tactic. Graeme knows it intimately, and Rabelais is experiencing his first joyous encounter.
How does one conquer ermorian castles defended by an uber VQ? other than by creating a vast world-wide alliance w/ a dozen committed armies.
(and even then...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
IMHO this is not sufficient to magically keep people from invading.
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sorry? how? can you be a bit less than completely vague? how are you conquering his castles? by "magic"? lol
[ May 04, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]