[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
All VQ defenders: please submit a list of reasons why the Cyclops, Titan, Shedu, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Son of the Sea, Lord of the Wild, or Lord of the Night are superior to the Vampire Queen.

The Lord of the Desert Sun and Lord of the Gates are horribly broken right now, due to their counterproductive autosummons that will quickly die and cause a rout. They're not really a good measure of performance and should probably be greatly reduced in cost, or this annoyance fixed, as this renders them nearly worthless as SCs. However, the LotDS *DOES* have a Fire-2 and Nature-1 base, which can make him a good choice for building towards a fire and nature bless. The fact that the lions are groundpounders also means his morale isn't QUITE as shabby as the Moloch's. If this silliness were fixed, the LotDS would make a respectable warrior.

The Shedu is, admittedly, somewhat of a dullard. He is very strong, and he tramples, which can be viewed as both a strength and weakness. However, the weakness of the Shedu, in my opinion, is irrelevant to the matter: Plenty of chassis options are unattractive. The problem lies with their being overpriced, not with everything else.

The Lord of the Gates is also a 50 point chassis. By your admittedly flawed comparison criteria, it should be inferior on those grounds alone. You'd be better off comparing the Lord of the Gates to the Prince of Death, who is definitely superior for the same cost....does this mean that it's the Prince of Death who is broken, since he outclasses a chassis that is intended to fill the same niche, or the Lord of the Gates that is broken, because he sucks for the above reasons, plus his useless shades give him the indomitable battle morale of the Moloch?

The Titan and Cyclops both possess superior physical stats, which Illwinter seems to price at a premium in a pretender chassis. Both are very physically strong, and the Cyclops has an excellent 20 base protection(23 with his basic E3). The Titan also has a base dominion of 3, as opposed to the VQ's 2...and as a VQ would definitely be better under high dominion, you're going to have to shell out extra for this privilege.

Both also possess level 3 magics, which give them a leg-up on a useful blessing effect, Air and Earth respectively. Both of these are potentially very useful blessings. In addition to their ability to provide an affordable and useful L9 blessing, which the VQ lacks, they're also capable of fighting....but this is not their primary function! The fact that they can provide a bless effect, IN ADDITION to their raw physical might, is why they're priced so. Remember: Buying your VQ magic paths for battle only makes her more potent. It won't do an especially good job filling national magics. It won't give the rest of your nation any useful benefits. It is not an appropriate strategy for all nations.

The Lord of the Night is physically powerful as the above, AND he flies, AND he is an assassin. Full slots, too. He's accompanied in battle by fiends of darkness, and while this opens up that annoying rout weakness, fiends of darkness are formidable....especially in assassinations!

Do you grasp the concept that she's a 110 point pretender and thus should not be superior? Why is this so difficult to understand? Do you not think the VQ is one of the top 5 chassis in the game? Why then does she not cost as much as the top 5? Why is she only 110 points?

Because a VQ, chassis alone, is crap. Try it. just take an empty VQ chassis and pit it in mortal combat against a basic Titan chassis. Script them to the best of your ability.

Guess what? The Titan will hand the VQ her ***. Why? Because the Titan is physically stronger, his magic is more useful, and he can crush the VQ in one hit. It's only when the VQ has been loaded down with some *300-500* points in magic paths specifically for the purpose of battle that she becomes useful. This is a far larger investment than a basic Titan and cannot be considered a fair comparison.

You cannot assess the quality of a pretender based purely on its chassis cost. It is simply untrue that a pretender with a 125 point chassis must be superior in every way to a pretender with a 50 point chassis. The chassis is not everything. You also have to consider the magic, the scales, and the dominion, and how that affects the functionality of the nation.

You VQ defenders have conveniently avoided this issue. Please, for the Last time. Answer this question or concede defeat. She is clearly overpowered. Your inability to either recognize this or admit as such is beyond belief.

I believe I have just addressed your points now.

Yes, the VQ can be tweaked into a generally more effective SC, particularly against normal troops. However, she has other weaknesses that the other pretenders may lack, and pure ability as an SC is not the only barometer of performance. If it weren't for the VQ's ability to fight, she would be rather useless, since she does not offer anything else to play off of: Any chassis can play scales, and you'd be better off with a low-cost purely physical chassis, like a no-magic Wyrm, which gains immortality through expendability. A bless, on the other hand, requires a good toe-hold start into that magic path, or it will grow hideously expensive. A fire-9 Vampire Queen impresses nobody, as the ruinous cost of trying to shoehorn a blessing onto something which has no leverage in that department, combined with the fact that you have essentially pissed away the strengths of the chassis by trying to make it do something it is bad at, will not give you a winning strategy.

The Vampire Queen is not in all ways superior to the Titan, or the Cyclops, or any other decent chassis: These chassis can give you things that the VQ cannot: Scales, blessings, or cheaper access to missing magics. The VQ, on the other hand, offers the potential to tweak into a monstrous SC....but only if you are willing to pay the price, which is *NOT* 110 points: You need magic paths suitable for casting your buffs, none of which comes natively on the VQ.....so you sacrifice a scale just to start it. You need strong dominion, for immortality is worthless if you can't even keep your dominion. All these costs add up to far more than just the 110 point chassis, something you are blissfully ignoring. And finally, the VQ needs research to HAVE spells to cast. A physically mighty chassis like the Bull, or the Wyrm, or, best of all, the Carrion Dragon, can start kicking *** from turn 1 or 2.

Bottom line: Yes, the VQ has the potential to be a better SC, but is not, by default: accessories sold seperately, batteries not included. Yes, the VQ is better for some strategies. No, the VQ is not better for ALL strategies. No, the strategies which utilize the VQ are not inherently superior to the alternatives. No, the VQ is not suitable for all nations.

If the VQ were the end all, be all, Marignon, R'lyeh, and Atlantis, which cannot choose the VQ, would be considered the worst nations in the game. Yet it's Tien Chi, despite the fact that it has a VQ, which is popularly considered to be first against the wall when the Revolution comes.

Sure, the VQ is currently a popular item....but how many people, really, are making it WORK for them...and how many people are just being ingloriously smitten in spite of their VQ? If you believe the VQ is a magic bullet, you're welcome to take one, and dance with some experienced players. See how well she actually does. Don't just whomp newbies, then complain how powerful it was....against players who don't know how to play.

[ May 07, 2004, 07:00: Message edited by: Norfleet ]