[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .

I don't know how big is big for you, anyway I've seen that phenomenon happen on maps of all sizes, except the tiniest (the likes of Urgaia).

the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .

(Hmmm, additional mages with no upkeep, you mean?)

There's some logic in what you say, but you're missing a very important point: Trolls are (reasonably) powerful mid-level summons. The upkeep-free summons you can get at the time Trolls become available either aren't as powerful, or as durable, or as easily available (eg, Draconians may not be available because you need your air gems for other things - a common case). Sure you can wait for upkeep-free summons which are as powerful as Trolls or better, but in the meantime the players who chose to invest in Trolls while you didn't will get an edge over you. And if that edge translates in extra provinces, sites, income, whatever, that more than covers the initial cost and upkeep of these Trolls (IOW, if these Trolls are paying for themselves), then you're already at a disadvantage you may never negate.

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .

Lots of things I enumerated several times (to no avail it seems), so I'll only list the most important points.

They're available early, need only a level 3 mage to summon, and are flexible in their summoning, allowing you to save on gems or on mage time, depending on your priorities.

They're very resilient to virtually every form of attack, due to the combination of regen, high HPs, and MR.

They don't eat and are strong, and that make them extremely well suited to sieges, particularly in remote or desolate areas where supplies are a problem. For the same reason they're also great for castle defense (actually my main use for Trolls is as fortress crackers - even if they don't participate in the final showdown, instead I often prefer to relocate them to the next enemy fortress while my other troops storm the place).

Sea Trolls are OFC natural amphibians and great for sieging underwater fortresses.

so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls.

It's surely better than summoning Trolls you'll leave idling in your castle. Otherwise a dozen clams won't save you when your neighbour's Trolls will knock at your door.

the upkeep is really prohibitive for them .

Not for them, not for me. It's only prohibitive for you.

every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .

Win what? A virtual war of relative costs? It has little meaning on the battlefield. Whoever has the strongest army wins (usually). If reinforcing my army means summonning Trolls, I sure wouldn't pass on it.

i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn .

Well, I don't like Atlantis much, but certainly not for that reason.