[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
You need LEVEL_6 Conjuration... that's not early.

OK, that's not very early. But as I've told before, Trolls are a midgame summon, and one of their benefits is they are usually available earlier than most upkeep-free summon which are equivalent in power.

Also Vine Ogres are ready at level_3 where it's possible to get 2 or more per gem... plus they don't have upkeep and won't retreat like Trolls.

I think Vine Ogres are plain OK for their casting requirements. But they suffer from a few liabilities the Trolls don't have. Anyway that kind of comparisons is somewhat pointless: if I have nature gems and nature mages, I'll use Vine Ogres. If I have water gems and water mages I'll summon Sea Trolls. If I have death gems and necromancers I'll enchant Pale Riders. You have to do with what is available to you.

If you're looking for a better deal for a mass of units all at once it's the pale riders. The pale riders LEVEL_5 Enchantment, zero upkeep, cheaper per gem, won't flee like trolls, faster then trolls, and more resistances.

Same remark as above. I don't agree with the 'LH have more resistances', OFC. Both Trolls have 4 more MR and can't be banished. Sea Trolls and LHs have the same elemental resistances. Regular Trolls haven't poison resistance and are fire susceptible, anyway you won't kill Trolls thru poison alone because of their regen, and it's still easier to kill masses of LHs with fire spells than a single Troll. Even Incinerate will leave him with some HPs left.

Also both vine ogres and longdead horsemen don't eat. So if you're popping out 10 trolls/per turn I could match this with at least 15 vine ogres/per turn.

And with what will you match my own Vine Ogres? I don't use Trolls as a replacement to something else I could otherwise summon. I use them when they're available and have the gems and mages to summon them, and when these mages haven't anything better to do. I think I emphasized this enough, I hope it's crystal clear now.

unless your opponent has over a dozen priests waiting.

Yep, being mindless or undead is sometimes a liability, but there's no obvious way to kill a Troll.

Also more importantly even if you do have lots of successful armies of trolls... the upkeep will hurt even after 10 turns it's 600 gold for just 15 Trolls. The longdead riders and ogre vines cost nothing and won't retreat either.

Rout is preferable to dissolution.

So far it seems your only gripe against Trolls is their upkeep, not their stats. So I guess you don't recruit anything but mages once you have access to upkeep-free summons?

[ July 15, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]