[daesthai]

Wow! Go to bed for a few hours and look at the firestorm that ensues!

I didn't mean to spark a debate of the correctness or validity of Catholicism, I merely pointed out that I thought it was silly of Kerry to say he was Catholic in a seeming attempt to garner the Catholic vote when he also states that he does not share some of the basic beliefs/values of Catholicism.

I'm not skilled enough in apologetics to try to tackle all of the questions/issues presented in this thread, but I can clarify a couple of issues where I feel something is incorrect...

Cheezeninja & Boron - I appreciate your views. Everyone knows religion is a hot-button topic, and the Posts here show how vehementaly people feel.

Cheezeninja - In the end it just gets right down to the bones of the abortion issue wherein Anti-Abortion people think you are killing a baby and should be stopped, and Pro-Choice people think you are destroying a zygote with the genetic complexity of a snail and feel the Anti-Abortion people are attempting to take away one of their rights.

I agree with your point here that it comes down to how certain information is viewed - is it a baby or is it a zygote? Is Kerry refraining from forcing his beliefs, or is he a hypocrit? It comes down to point of view. Because of this, I think its very rare that someone will change their position on the subject just because someone else talks with or tries to persuade them. The decision and veiwpoint come about because of experiences and values, not because of words and explinations.

Cheezeninja - Not being a catholic myself i dont know if divinity is attributed to the pope or not, so that entire argument might be moot.

The point is, indeed, moot. Not because the pope is given a divine status, but because, in matters of church doctrine, he is considered infallable. Regardless of whether someone ELSE agrees with that or not, it is the teaching of the Catholic church.

Cheezeninja - Catholisism was around way before abortion and already had all of its beliefs and rules defined and categorized. With the advent of abortion they had to go to a non-divine, humanly selected person to make the call (the pope), and its entirely possible he made the wrong call

I understand your point here, but as you also stated later in your post, "In the end it just gets right down to the bones of the abortion issue wherein Anti-Abortion people think you are killing a baby and should be stopped". If that is the case, and in the Catholic view it is, then that is murder. Which was addressed directly in the Ten Commandments.

Boron - so even the catholic church recognizes severe mistakes and corrects them even if only slowly . so if they change it themselfes it is good or what..and it is the best proof that the catholic church + the pope aren't inerrant as they always claim .
ihmo the catholic church is just hypocritical.

If you notice my statement earlier in this post, the Pope is considered infallable in maters of doctrine. Even the Pope is not granted authority to change doctrine - only to interperet it. Practices can be altered (as in Vatican II), Liturgy can be changed, but the doctrine and beliefs are consistant.

Boron - furthermore there is nothing in the bible that justifes the catholic worship of saints .
one of the 10 commandmends says you should have no other gods beside me .
but in the catholic church the worship for especially maria is more important than for jesus .

This statement is frequently made, and is just as frequently incorrect. Saints are by no means placed on a godly level, nor are they worshiped. They are elevated as role-models and examples of faithfulness. There is nothing wrong with asking others to pray with and for us, and that is what Catholics ask of the Saints - to pray for them. Their lives are used as examples of how to live a Catholic life and how to act/react in given situation. They are not given their own divinty, nor are they given the authority or powers of God. The same is true about Mary. Your statement that she has become more important than Jesus is an exaggeration to say the least. Just as the Saints have an elevated status, so does Mary. Even the scripture refers to her as "Blessed above all women". Does she hold a revered status? yes! Is she given the power and authority of God, himself? absolutely not.

Boron - the claiming of the catholic church that it is the one and only true belief is just offending to me

You are misinterpreting my quote. Whether or not the Catholic church believes it is the only faith is a matter of debate. But the quote "I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" does not negate other beliefs. The quote (which interestingly enough appears in both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds - both of which are part of the Lutheran liturgy as well) is making a statement about how the church defines and recognizes itself. Note that "catholic" is not capitalized here (I think in a previous post, out of habit, I capitalized it, which is incorrect.) This refers not to catholic as in the believe system, but rather the word "catholic" as it is derived from the greek word meaning universal. It basically states that only one catholic (universal) church is recognized, and it is granted its holiness and sanctity in the fact that the leadership is decended through the unbroken and successive line of the apostles, and thus retains its original beliefs(doctrine-wise). In effect, in terms of Christian faiths, the Catholic church views itself as the church, and all other Christian belief systems as sects, since they historically broke off from the Catholic church and branched off from there.

Boron - the main problem with the catholic church i have is that they are the most "aggressive" big world religion

Could you please clarify what you mean here by aggressive? If you mean that the Catholic church is very vocal in it's opinions and is trying to constantly increase its influence, that's one thing - I would have to say you have a valid point. But if you're equating aggressiveness to violence and forcing itself on someone, I would have to disagree, and I think most of the news coming from the middle east would support me.

[ July 28, 2004, 20:53: Message edited by: daesthai ]