[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Which you are doing by refusing to provide proper health care.

No. Perhaps I need that health care for myself. It's my money. Don't they have their own money? If they think it's really that bad, I can lend them some duct tape. Duct tape has worked for me when I couldn't afford to seek medical treatment. They can make it work for them.

Really? Somebody always has to be poor? I wasn't aware that the shortage of resources in the U.S. was so acute that there was not enough food for every person.

You seem to think that resources are unlimited and that everyone can be rich. That is not the case. If everyone were rich, we'd simply have inflation. Some people will always be of below average means. And there's plenty of food....provided you are not picky. Not everyone can afford wine and caviar, but rats are free. Hell, people will pay you to be rid of them.

You aren't nearly as self-supporting as you think you are.

That which I cannot take care of myself, I can pay someone to do it. The key here is that I pay for what I consume: I don't expect a handout. When I didn't have enough money for it, I learned to do without. If I become sick, I can pay a doctor. If I can't afford to pay a doctor, I'll learn to do without. What an amazing concept.

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
And it still would be. Providing a hard bottom that people cannot fall below that allows them to avoid starving and suffering from poor health does not mean that they are experiencing a life of luxury.

Being starving and suffering is a great motivation to succeed. I certainly wouldn't have been motivated to succeed in life if I thought living out of a jeep between jobs was all that. Some people, however, seem to want nothing more than that: For them, if this is provided FOR FREE, they have no incentive to do anything more than be a leech. Since they have no income, they won't be paying anything back. Why support this?

A hard bottom is a cardboard box in an alley and a tasty "you kill it, you grill it" rat-on-a-stick. The means to survive always exists. People have survived for millenia. They can do so again.

I never said that society owes you success. I said that society owes you protection from starving to death and abject poverty.

No, society owes you the opportunity to avoid starving to death and remaining in abject poverty. If you choose to simply be a leech, you deserve to starve and remain in poverty.

I can never understand why basic medical care isn't considered to be something that society should pay for. After all, people don't seem to have a problem with the sewer system being paid for by taxes, and that's the single most important part of your health care.

That's because without a sewer system, somebody, upstream, is dumping his crap into my drinking water. And I'd be dumping my crap into somebody downstream. I think it's worth paying up to avoid dealing with this.

After all, you as an individual wouldn't be hurt by dumping your own personal sewage into the river.

No, but if you don't support the sewer system, you're doing this dumping at somebody else's expense....and somebody else is dumping at yours.

You would pay for them because you want better than the bare minimum.

The minimum is a cardboard box in an alley. This costs you nothing. Somebody will surely have a cardboard box they'll let you have. If you're lucky, you might even be arrested for vagrancy and get to spend the night in a cell with Bubba.

Originally posted by LintMan:
Norfleet, are you a R.A. Heinlein fan by any chance? If you haven't read any of his SF, you might want to check him out.

I've read some of his work, and rather enjoyed it. My memory is slightly fuzzy about details at the moment, so don't ask me for specifics.

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Lots of people who have been homeless and jobless can tell you that it's not hard to avoid starvation in this country. Soup kitchens, church Groups giving out food - even scavenging behind restaurants.

Starvation isn't much of an issue in the USA, at least not in urban areas.

It's hard to starve in ANY urban area. Between particularly bad jobs, I often didn't have any cash on me. I couldn't afford to pay food, and even if I could, I certainly couldn't afford to be noticed. You know what? I learned to do without. Have I mentioned how tasty rats are?

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
If it actually encouraged people to become "leeches", as you've called them, then the majority of the industrialized world would be populated by these leeches. The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people _want_ to make it by themselves, and would rather that other people don't support them too much.

No, that's the excuse that is used to justify the system. These people have family. Friends. Church Groups. Why can't they ask THESE people for help? These people surely care about them. Why can they not get help there?

A person can easily be in such a situation through no fault of their own. A person should be allowed to fail, but this failure shouldn't bring them down to the point where they can't maintain the most basic level of care for themselves.

A little bit of suffering and hardship builds character. It *IS* their fault, for not having anticipated this, and not being willing to DEAL.

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Why should I reward the poor decisions they made in their lives? Example: if someone decides to have 8 children, and cannot afford to feed/clothe/care for more than 1, why must I (in the form of taxes) pay for their stupidity/irresponsibility?

Why isn't compassion for them reason enough?

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Because compassion costs money. I have a finite amount of money. Therefore, I have a finite amount of compassion. My compassion is first reserved for those people who I think are genuinely deserving of my help. People who I think will someday perhaps be able to pay me BACK. Not people who are complete idiots and will spend my money on digging themselves a deeper hole.

Everyone else is already burdened by these people, so moving it into a more visible place would probably be a good thing.

There you have it. Let them suffer in public. Let them serve as an object lesson to others. When they die horribly in a pool of their own blood and vomit, I'll gladly pony up the tax money to hire someone to have their stinking carcass removed.